The Air Forces of non-Western nations and their capabilities

[tigisfat]

I'm not a pilot,I was a tanker.I look at this the same way I look at any other weapons system.Recently the Russians finally junked tens of thousands of armored vehicles,they simply couldn't keep them running with out spare parts and the money and personal to fix them.

And a T-62 is a lot easier to maintain then an F-14, I am willing to guess.The Russian armored force is a shadow of it's former self,the truth is they went broke trying to keep all of that equipment and most of it didn't even run.

We are talking about Iran, right? Iran is not broke and has no lack of scientists, training and facilities. Their F-14 program was set up by the US Navy and Grumman. Iran's government is one of the richest on the planet, and they are more than capable of funding their programs.

I would guess you would have to look at availability of the equipment.Do they have fuel and spare parts,maintenance personnel with the knowledge and ability to keep things moving.I was also an ASE auto tech..

Fuel? Holy cow, they are an oil producing nation. They built their strategic stockpiles off of the illegal Iraqi oil that was smuggled into Iran at rock-bottom prices. That's why our embargoes didn't hurt Saddam. Since the revolution, their F-14 program has gone indigenous. They can manufacture whatever they want in-country, and their research has lead them to upgraded components. We're not sure exactly what their Phoenix missiles are even capable of anymore because they've been upgraded. As far as maintenance knowledge, again, their program was set up by us and they have the money to keep it going and keep training new guys.

You can send a guy to school to learn how to fix something but....if he doesn't have some inherent skill,what we called the touch,he will be a lousy mechanic.I've seen it time and time again,guys with all kinds of training and schooling who couldn't fix a bicycle.

Let's be positive that we don't assume other countries are filled with dumb people that can't learn just because we see their huddled masses on TV. Iran is home to some extremely well respected universities, and contributions by those of Iranian descent in fields such as science and medicine are recognized around the world.

They understood the theory but couldn't make it happen.I can't type.....same thing.I have been thru typing class in college and can't type to save my life.

the Russians or the Iranians? The Russians recieved a bad rap after copying the B-29 directly, and it's been assumed forever that they copy our work. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most often, we've copied their work in a race to provide a counterpart for weapons systems they've built. Many prominent cold war aircraft were a response to a similar Russian design. The west has had some pretty large advances in avionics, but the Russians have always been extremely effective in aerodynamics and reliability. Have we forgotten how much of the space race they lead?

As for the Iranians, underestimating them could be costly. They aren't dumb, plus they have money and decent equipment.

 

[Toastmaker]

We are talking about Iran, right? Iran is not broke and has no lack of scientists, training and facilities. Their F-14 program was set up by the US Navy and Grumman. Iran's government is one of the richest on the planet, and they are more than capable of funding their programs.

Fuel? Holy cow, they are an oil producing nation. They built their strategic stockpiles off of the illegal Iraqi oil that was smuggled into Iran at rock-bottom prices. That's why our embargoes didn't hurt Saddam. Since the revolution, their F-14 program has gone indigenous. They can manufacture whatever they want in-country, and their research has lead them to upgraded components. We're not sure exactly what their Phoenix missiles are even capable of anymore because they've been upgraded. As far as maintenance knowledge, again, their program was set up by us and they have the money to keep it going and keep training new guys.

Let's be positive that we don't assume other countries are filled with dumb people that can't learn just because we see their huddled masses on TV. Iran is home to some extremely well respected universities, and contributions by those of Iranian descent in fields such as science and medicine are recognized around the world.

the Russians or the Iranians? The Russians recieved a bad rap after copying the B-29 directly, and it's been assumed forever that they copy our work. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most often, we've copied their work in a race to provide a counterpart for weapons systems they've built. Many prominent cold war aircraft were a response to a similar Russian design. The west has had some pretty large advances in avionics, but the Russians have always been extremely effective in aerodynamics and reliability. Have we forgotten how much of the space race they lead?

As for the Iranians, underestimating them could be costly. They aren't dumb, plus they have money and decent equipment.

Are you kidding ?? Do you really think the Iranians are building F-14A's. . . completely "reverse engineered" from the ones the Shah's government bought -or even Phoenix missiles ?? Have you even thought about the materials and design/engineering skills and manufacturing nuances (proprietary to Grumman at the time) that would be needed ?

No one is saying the Iranians are stupid, quite the contrary, but you seem to have bought Iranian propaganda hook, line and sinker ! If you want to stand in awe of and fear of their air force - go ahead. Those who are going to have to eliminate them do not.

And the Russians have all this reliability in their hardware ?? The RUSSIANS ? Have you forgotten how many cosmonauts were killed in all their "reliable" spacecrafts and heavy-lift rockets ? How about how advanced and aerodynamic the Mig-25 turned out to NOT be !!

 

[tigisfat]

Are you kidding ?? Do you really think the Iranians are building F-14A's. . . completely "reverse engineered" from the ones the Shah's government bought -or even Phoenix missiles ?? Have you even thought about the materials and design/engineering skills and manufacturing nuances (proprietary to Grumman at the time) that would be needed ?!!

They are not building F-14s, they are building F-14 parts.

No one is saying the Iranians are stupid, quite the contrary, but you seem to have bought Iranian propaganda hook, line and sinker ! If you want to stand in awe of and fear of their air force - go ahead. Those who are going to have to eliminate them do not.

It was implied earlier that Iranians are stupid. (yes, I know a flurry of post editing will follow this post, that's probably a good thing)They have a very capable and modern military. I don't "stand in fear and awe of it" though. :salute: Please don't question my sanity or credibility, sir. Between the two of us, I'm the only one that recieved years of regular intel briefings about Iran until two months ago.

And the Russians have all this reliability in their hardware ?? The RUSSIANS ?

Yes, the Russians.

Have you forgotten how many cosmonauts were killed in all their "reliable" spacecrafts and heavy-lift rockets ? How about how advanced and aerodynamic the Mig-25 turned out to NOT be !!

We've all lost a few brave space pioneers. I'm simply saying that we can't dismiss the Russian achievements in aerospace........because they paved the way for a while. Their Germans were better than our Germans.

 

[Willy]

Gentlemen, I would suggest carrying this discussion to the Quartermoon Saloon (aka Oso's) before it gets out of hand.

http://quartermoonsaloon.com/forum/

 

[jmig]

Gentlemen, we are getting close to a war amongst ourselves here.

A word to the wise.

Careful!

 

[Bone]

I had read somewhere that when the F-14's were retired from the Navy, that they were virtually stripped of any component that could be black marketed to Iran, and these components were destroyed...dats wat i red, annyhoo. Fox fox fox!

 

[tigisfat]

Gentlemen, I would suggest carrying this discussion to the Quartermoon Saloon (aka Oso's) before it gets out of hand.

http://quartermoonsaloon.com/forum/

Dually noted. Now, I disappear into the night not to reappear in this thread. May I also suggest that I was never here, and I never made a single post that could've escalated things. Also, these aren't the droids you're looking for.

 

[Toastmaker]

Tigisfat - sorry if I came across a bit too snotty. I mean you no disrespect.



(but you might be surprised at information sources available to me. . .)

 

[Ken Stallings]

All I want to say is there is a world of difference between putting three or four F-14's in a formation for an airshow vice fielding a modern and effective air force. So, I'm not truly impressed with the Iranian Air Force. They were a lot better before internal politics there lead to a number of their best pilots and commanders being killed in political purges!

Now, with regard to the overall theme here, there are many non-Western Air Forces that have been first rate for many decades. The Indian Air Force is likely the best air force in the world flying mostly Russian made aircraft. They have the money and the desire to train, and train well.

The Japanese Self-Defense Air Force is top shelf also, and truly always has been except for when near total financial ruin harmed it after the end of World War II.

For a relatively small force, I also think the Taiwanese Air Force is pretty solid.

Though small, certainly the forces of Pacific Rim allies like Australia are excellent, though I presume most folks would include the ANZUS powers as being "western."

The Royal Saudi Air Force flies well maintained and well piloted F-15's. So, I would rate them superior to the Iranians right now and have no qualms about it.

And no one will likely ever discredit the Israeli Air Force, and for very good reasons!

Cheers,

Ken

 

[Panther_99FS]

Anyone know how the IIRAF faired against the IQAF in the 80s :ques:

 

[Ken Stallings]

If Israel wasn't sweating it, they wouldn't have all the latest gear we don't have. (which they do, they're just not dumb enough to buy golden hunting bullets coughF-22cough).

People who are paid and trained to be professional fighter pilots do not refer to the F-22 in the language you chose. When I have spoken personally with pilots of F-15C's and F-22's the universal consensus view they share with me is that the F-22 is a deadly predator of the skies, able to accomplish feats in aerial combat that should we get into a real shooting war with a viable foreign air force, will inflict damages previously considered impossible.

I also am old enough to precisely remember similar comments made around 1978 to 1981 about the F-15. Those comments ended rather briskly when the F-15 got into enough aerial engagement with an unblemished kill ratio to prove the doubters wrong.

The only problem with the F-22 is numbers and that's a reflection of our budget, not the aircraft's capabilities. Israel, despite their acute needs, also must be mindful of their budget limitations. Make no mistake though, if Lockheed Martin offered Israel substantial discounts, they would eagerly seek to purchase enough F-22's to replace their entire F-15 fleet!

Ken

 

[Bone]

People who are paid and trained to be professional fighter pilots do not refer to the F-22 in the language you chose. When I have spoken personally with pilots of F-15C's and F-22's the universal consensus view they share with me is that the F-22 is a deadly predator of the skies, able to accomplish feats in aerial combat that should we get into a real shooting war with a viable foreign air force, will inflict damages previously considered impossible.

I also am old enough to precisely remember similar comments made around 1978 to 1981 about the F-15. Those comments ended rather briskly when the F-15 got into enough aerial engagement with an unblemished kill ratio to prove the doubters wrong.

The only problem with the F-22 is numbers and that's a reflection of our budget, not the aircraft's capabilities. Israel, despite their acute needs, also must be mindful of their budget limitations. Make no mistake though, if Lockheed Martin offered Israel substantial discounts, they would eagerly seek to purchase enough F-22's to replace their entire F-15 fleet!

Ken

Well, the Raptor still has many issues. A friend of mine who is a Guard KC-135 driver has done a number of fighter drag's accross the Pacific and the Atlantic, of which numerous have been with F-22's. According to him, the F-22 drags never go as planned. They either have to turn back or make an unscheduled landing because the F-22 isn't reliable during the long deployment leg.

 

[jmig]

Well, the Raptor still has many issues. A friend of mine who is a Guard KC-135 driver has done a number of fighter drag's accross the Pacific and the Atlantic, of which numerous have been with F-22's. According to him, the F-22 drags never go as planned. They either have to turn back or make an unscheduled landing because the F-22 isn't reliable during the long deployment leg.

Just about every cutting edge weapons system the US has developed had teething problems. I can remember issues with the F-16, F-15, F-111, Abrams tank, etc. These modern systems are so complex that unanticipated issues show up in full production that didn't show in testing. sort of like the Beta on software vs. production product.

Given the money and time to work out the bugs these weapons systems become outstanding examples of hardware. The F-22 is no different.

 

[safn1949]

Just to be clear,it's my understanding that the Persians are a highly educated people.Many years ago I knew a gentleman from that country and he was one of the finest people I have had the pleasure to know.

Ability......that's what I am talking about.Who is training the Iranian pilots and groundcrew? Of course they are smart enough to learn,but who is doing the teaching and do they truly have up to date manuals and equipment.

Also remember that Iran imports most of it's gasoline,I have no idea if they process jet fuel or not but they lack some refining capability.

I guess in the end I would have to go back to the Iran-Iraq war.They didn't manage to whip the Iraqi's in 8 years of trying.:d

 

[Naki]

The only problem with the F-22 is numbers and that's a reflection of our budget, not the aircraft's capabilities. Israel, despite their acute needs, also must be mindful of their budget limitations. Make no mistake though, if Lockheed Martin offered Israel substantial discounts, they would eagerly seek to purchase enough F-22's to replace their entire F-15 fleet!
Ken

The US government won't let Lockheed Martin sell the F-22 to anybody other than their own military - Japan (and I also believe Israel) wanted F-22s but the US govt squashed any sale.

 

[Ken Stallings]

The US government won't let Lockheed Martin sell the F-22 to anybody other than their own military - Japan (and I also believe Israel) wanted F-22s but the US govt squashed any sale.

That's a very good point and of course you are right. My point was simply that the lack of overseas sales on the F-22 is not a negative reflection on the aircraft. It is price and as you point out rightly, simple availability.

Ken

 

[Bone]

Operational stats aside, it's a cool looking beast. This is at Eglin AFB/Ft. Walton Beach.

 

[Bjoern]

Not to be flippant but a single suicide bomber really gives you more bang for your buck ....

Nice pun, lol.

And a T-62 is a lot easier to maintain then an F-14, I am willing to guess.

Russian crudity. The tolerances are measured in "width of vodka bottles" instead of mm...which by the way also makes their studd incredibly durable.

But the T-x2s are so effin' small it's got to be like hell in there. Seriously, they are no more than 2.1m high whereas the Leopard 2 tops off at 2.7m (and is quite comfy inside).
Upside: They're more likely to find hull-down positions in the field.
Downside: They can't give their main gun much of a neghative inclination, so fighting downhill gets a bit hard.

Anyone know how the IIRAF faired against the IQAF in the 80s :ques:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Air_Force_in_Iran–Iraq_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Air_Force

No exact numbers and a lot of claims.

 

[safn1949]

Nice pun, lol.





Russian crudity. The tolerances are measured in "width of vodka bottles" instead of mm...which by the way also makes their studd incredibly durable.

But the T-x2s are so effin' small it's got to be like hell in there. Seriously, they are no more than 2.1m high whereas the Leopard 2 tops off at 2.7m (and is quite comfy inside).
Upside: They're more likely to find hull-down positions in the field.
Downside: They can't give their main gun much of a negative inclination, so fighting downhill gets a bit hard.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Air_Force_in_Iran–Iraq_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Air_Force

No exact numbers and a lot of claims.

Also causes a problem in elevation of the main gun,there was a battle in one of the Israeli-Arab wars where the Arabs were in a valley and were picked off because they couldn't elevate their guns enough to engage the Israeli tanks.

The size of Soviet armor was always determined by the rail system,the Soviet Union was large and the armor moved by rail.The simple fact is they had to fit through the numerous tunnels along the way.Thus the profile you see in all of their MBT's.

 

[Bjoern]

Also causes a problem in elevation of the main gun,there was a battle in one of the Israeli-Arab wars where the Arabs were in a valley and were picked off because they couldn't elevate their guns enough to engage the Israeli tanks.

That too.

And the autoloader wasn't the best of the best (at first), too.

The size of Soviet armor was always determined by the rail system,the Soviet Union was large and the armor moved by rail.The simple fact is they had to fit through the numerous tunnels along the way.Thus the profile you see in all of their MBT's.

Actually, I am more of the opinion that the flat apperance of soviet tanks is more influenced by the rather flat terrain in the soviet union.