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Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.
ILS gauge question
- Thread starter PRB
- Start date
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Ken Stallings
Guest
fixed card NDB approaches yeeehaa...get your timer and your approach plate out and prepare to get dizzy
In all seriousness, the FAA now says you can fly any existing NDB approach with an IFR certified GPS. You simply call up the NDB approach in your GPS and fly the depicted course using GPS guidance.
The FAA really wants to decertify all NDB approaches and I recall decided they will no longer spend money to repair them as they break. I agree with their decision. I truly think these should go the way of the dodo bird.
They aren't that accurate and often the needle swings due to oscillations in signal are ten degrees left and right even if you are dead-nuts on course!
Cheers,
Ken
skyblazer3
Charter Member
It'll be a sad day when we loose the NDBs. Of course, I'm still nostalgic for the PAR approaches. The airplane I fly now doesn't even have an ADF, but I sure wish it did.... it would give me something else to cross reference on long cross countries. When they take the VORs away from us and all we have is a GPS we are going to get really bored in the cockpit.
There is also the issue of redundancy.....
Chris
There is also the issue of redundancy.....
Chris
Yes we fly out NDB and VOR approaches these days in the 747 using RNAV/GPS. For this reason they are largely being replaced with actual RNAV approaches with appropriate minumums.
In FS you are probaly flying an approach without a proper approach plate. The actual plates will specify altitude segments, final approach position and altitude, minimums and much more, even procedure holds and procedure turns. Annnndddd of course the missed approach procedure.
Cheers: T
In FS you are probaly flying an approach without a proper approach plate. The actual plates will specify altitude segments, final approach position and altitude, minimums and much more, even procedure holds and procedure turns. Annnndddd of course the missed approach procedure.
Cheers: T
J
JamesChams
Guest
Yes, Mr. Paul "PRB," they still do! But, sometimes, you have to pull-out the "Squelch" button (to remove any noise filtering) to be able to listen to the entire AM broadcast.
...But, so few people tune into AM these day for radio purposes since, FM is STEREO based broadcasting, and not to mention all the other reasons. But, by far the most reasonable issue for peoples departure from AM Radio would be the range/reception of AM radio stations when compared to Satellite Radio...
Here is more on NDB's & Frequency information usage: (from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-directional_beacon)
"NDBs used for aviation are standardised by ICAO Annex 10 which specifies that NDBs be operated on a frequency between 190 kHz and 1750 kHz,<SUP id=cite_ref-FAAAIM_0-0 class=reference>[1]</SUP> although normally all NDBs in North America operate between 190 kHz and 535 kHz.<SUP id=cite_ref-FAAAIM_0-1 class=reference>[1]</SUP> Each NDB is identified by a one, two, or three-letter Morse code callsign. In Canada, some of the identifiers include numbers. North American NDBs are categorized by power output, with low power rated at less than 50 watts, medium from 50 W to 2,000 W and high being over 2,000 W.<SUP id=cite_ref-1 class=reference>[2]</SUP><SUP id=cite_ref-2 class=reference>[3]</SUP>"
"[edit] Monitoring NDBs
... The beacons that are between 510 kHz and 530 kHz can sometimes be heard on AM radios that can tune below the beginning of the AM broadcast band."
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
From,
James F. Chams
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Ken Stallings
Guest
VOR's aren't going anywhere for the forseeable future. As far as I know the FAA hasn't made any plans to decommission VOR's. I think they will remain very popular for the rest of our lifetimes.
The airlines still have a great number of their navigation systems that use VOR's automatically to rate their accuracies. Beyond that, VOR's are a very nice backup to GPS, and one that I like to make good use of on cross countries.
A VOR instrument approach can be flown very accurately as they are solid on the course guidance.
Cheers,
Ken
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Ken Stallings
Guest
Now I had not known that the airlines were starting to fly the VOR approaches by reference to the GPS systems. I was not aware of written FAA guidance that authorized flying a VOR approach using the GPS as a primary means of reference.
Is this something the airlines negotiated separately from the FAR's?
Ken
J
JamesChams
Guest
Mr. Ken Stallings,
If you fly complete "Glass" GPS based navigation system, especially under Part 121 or 135 operations, those feature apply. There is NO requirement, it is just how it is done. Also, many approach plates indicate "RNAV (GPS)" in the Title, which permits (thus enables) use in both or with both types of equipment interchangeably. (eg. http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1005/00083R21L.PDF or http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1005/00083R25.PDF)
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
From,
James F. Chams
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Ken Stallings
Guest
Thanks for the information.
BTW: Appreciate your very nice politeness, but please call me Ken.
Cheers,
Ken
ADF receivers can pick up AM radio stations, but most GA aircraft currently in production lack ADF receivers.
I know that both Cessna and Piper's glass cockpit systems lack the ability to pick up NDB's, but you can get an ADF receiver added on for about $9,000, which means there probably aren't a lot of them sold.
ryanbatc
Charter Member
Yep they just decomissioned the SUW ndb in our airspace. Funny thing is, we didn't know until a few days ago, and it was actually done Fall 2009 lol. There is still a GPS approach at KSUW though
As a note:
If we do fly a NDB/VOR approach using LNAV (which uses GPS as a position reference in the 747) we are required to have the raw data available to monitor the approach, even though we are actually using the LNAV (and often VNAV) to actually control the guidance of the aircraft. It's sor to used as a crosscheck.
Cheers: T
If we do fly a NDB/VOR approach using LNAV (which uses GPS as a position reference in the 747) we are required to have the raw data available to monitor the approach, even though we are actually using the LNAV (and often VNAV) to actually control the guidance of the aircraft. It's sor to used as a crosscheck.
Cheers: T
TeaSea
SOH-CM-2014
I regularly listen to the local stations and some en route one's I know using my ADF. It drives my wife nuts because there's a big band oldies station I listen to outside Ocala. I can pick it up as soon as I clear the clutter around Tampa, and listen to it almost to Jacksonville.....she hates it.
Oh, you can pick up NDB's too....I suppose that's an added feature
TeaSea
SOH-CM-2014
Unlike Ken, I still think there's a use for NDB and NDB approaches.....HF propagates significantly different from UHF and VHF transmitters, making them more usable in some situations than VOR's.
I'd be interested in any Alaskan and Canadian flier's on their opinion of eliminating NDB's.
I'd be interested in any Alaskan and Canadian flier's on their opinion of eliminating NDB's.
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Ken Stallings
Guest
I regularly listen to the local stations and some en route one's I know using my ADF. It drives my wife nuts because there's a big band oldies station I listen to outside Ocala. I can pick it up as soon as I clear the clutter around Tampa, and listen to it almost to Jacksonville.....she hates it.
Oh, you can pick up NDB's too....I suppose that's an added feature
My 310R has XM Satellite weather and radio. That's kind of the ultimate 21st century upgrade to music by NDB!
Although, I rarely have ever listened to it and never on a cross country on an instrument routing or VFR with flight following. I just don't want to miss a radio call by ATC.
Cheers,
Ken
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Ken Stallings
Guest
Other than range, I'm not sure what other advantages HF has over the VHF freqencies of a VOR.
HF is more susceptible to atmospheric distortions, including weather. They are less accurate with more signal wobble on the needle.
The only two conditions I see for NDB's over VOR's is the extra range offered when coasting in over the ocean to a land mass, and in third world countries due to the cost differential, which allows poor nations to offer the NDB's vice the VOR's.
Cheers,
Ken
Brett_Henderson
Charter Member
See my avatar 
Edit: oops.. wrong forum.. lol it would say "Every outer-marker should be an NDB"
Edit: oops.. wrong forum.. lol it would say "Every outer-marker should be an NDB"
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Ken Stallings
Guest
See my avatar
Edit: oops.. wrong forum.. lol it would say "Every outer-marker should be an NDB"
You do bring up an excellent point there. Clearly the markers serve a very useful purpose and so those will be retained, and should be. But they are low power NDB's.
Ken