Serious battle between ATC and pilot, pilot declares emergency to get another runway.

[tigisfat]

I'm thinkin' the "serious battle" here is between SOH members....:d

Panther, Panther, Panther. The sensationalist headlines are only part of the marketing package. To remain competitive and viable in today's threading environment, it takes a hard driving approach to ensure posters will populate your conversation instead of it going straight to page 2. This philosophy is fast-becoming the strategy of all leading threaders. To stay on top, I've got a small team (ahem, my cat) working on potential marketing outlines for the sumer months. :salute:

 

[bstolle]

I am personally of the view that these "preferred runway" clauses have gotten way out of hand and that the FAA has been negligent in not forcing their immediate abolition.
Ken

That's also a serious problem in Europe. Amsterdam is a good example. There are quite a few statistics which show that the number of landing accidents an incidents increase very much once the crosswind component exceeds 25kts.
In such a situation the captain of a 757 touched down that hard and yawed in AMS, that the whole nose gear was ripped from the nosewheel well.

 

[Ken Stallings]

So, the lesson to take away from this discussion, as a student pilot, is this: If ATC wants me to land on a runway that is out of limits due to crosswind, all I have to do is declare an emergency. That way they have to let me land on whatever runway I want. Let me write this down, because I may want to get my license some day, and this is good gouge...

I wouldn't necessarily draw that lesson. The most important thing to keep in mind is that this controller, and his supervisor most likely, were both dead ass wrong and knew it.

Yes, if you "fake" an emergency, you can get in serious trouble with the FAA. ATC has the authority to require the pilot to fill out a written report when he declares an emergency.

I am thinking the pilot had no concerns filling out a report of this kind because he had every intention of sending a loud and clear message that the controllers were incompetently putting people at risk because they refused to use the runway clearly suitable and kept using one that clearly was not. In short, the controllers hazarded air traffic.

If you are going to declare an emergency, you have to have a situation that requires priority ATC services to avoid mishap. In the pilot's judgment, the active runway was unsafe due to extreme crosswinds and he wasn't going to hazard his passengers and crew simply to comply with a controller who lost his common sense and reason for having a job!

Good for him!

Ken

 

[PRB]

This is interesting.

I ran this story past the two pilots who work in same office I work in. Well, they used to be pilots, now they're simulator instructors. Anyhow, they're ex-navy EA-6B pilots, with many years experience. They hadn't heard of the incident, so we went online and found it, and listened to it.

They both agreed, with no hesitation whatever, with Ken and Tigs. Then I tried with them what I tried with you people here: “But surely there is a better way to handle this... You canna go around declaring emergencies every time you don't get your way...” The answer was “you're missing the point. If the runway ATC wants me to land on is out of limits for crosswind, and ATC won't listen to my request for another runway, I'd probably have done the same thing this guy did – there's no time to jerk around with a giant airplane full of passengers – we'll talk about it when we're on the ground.”

Which is what Ken & Co. have been saying.

 

[Ken Stallings]

This is interesting.

I ran this story past the two pilots who work in same office I work in. Well, they used to be pilots, now they're simulator instructors. Anyhow, they're ex-navy EA-6B pilots, with many years experience. They hadn't heard of the incident, so we went online and found it, and listened to it.

They both agreed, with no hesitation whatever, with Ken and Tigs. Then I tried with them what I tried with you people here: “But surely there is a better way to handle this... You canna go around declaring emergencies every time you don't get your way...” The answer was “you're missing the point. If the runway ATC wants me to land on is out of limits for crosswind, and ATC won't listen to my request for another runway, I'd probably have done the same thing this guy did – there's no time to jerk around with a giant airplane full of passengers – we'll talk about it when we're on the ground.”

Which is what Ken & Co. have been saying.

Yep, and I think you would be hard pressed to find a professional pilot who would think any differently.

It really isn't even a close call.

Every person in that airplane is counting on the pilot to put their safety first.

I have zero tolerance for people who purchase a home near an airport and then bitch about the noise! In every single case, the dang airport was there long before the homes were! Politicians listen to bitching home owners and tell you through their votes regarding "preferred runways" and other such decsions how they feel about your safety as a passenger on an airplane!

The controller, sitting in his air conditioned office, is going to go home whether the pilot is able to land safely or not. The pilot and everyone else on the airplane goes home safe only if the pilot lands safely!

It's the old saw about bacon and eggs on your breakfast platter! The chicken who laid the eggs was "involved." The pig with his bacon was "committed!"

The controller is involved. The pilot and his crew are committed, and as passengers, you are along for the ride regardless how it turns out, equally committed, just essentially powerless!

So, if you want to know why we pilots are passionate about this, think about the differences between the pilots and the controllers -- committment and involvement.

My definition of a good air traffic controller? It is simple -- a controller who understands the difference between involvement and commitment, and strives to do whatever is needed to keep the people in that airplane safe. This controller failed. And if I had my way, he'd be put on administrative leave, and only if I determined he was under significant pressure to keep that runway active "or else," would I let him keep his job. If he was being put under pressure to not change the runway despite the weather conditions, then I would put him back in the seat on probation, and fire everyone who put him under that pressure!

Lives count more than noise, more than homeowners pissed off because they bought a house near an airport! Lives are more important than controller convenience. And a crosswind out of limits remains a crosswind out of limits, period, dot.

Cheers,

Ken

 

[Skittles]

This is interesting.

I ran this story past the two pilots who work in same office I work in. Well, they used to be pilots, now they're simulator instructors. Anyhow, they're ex-navy EA-6B pilots, with many years experience. They hadn't heard of the incident, so we went online and found it, and listened to it.

They both agreed, with no hesitation whatever, with Ken and Tigs. Then I tried with them what I tried with you people here: “But surely there is a better way to handle this... You canna go around declaring emergencies every time you don't get your way...” The answer was “you're missing the point. If the runway ATC wants me to land on is out of limits for crosswind, and ATC won't listen to my request for another runway, I'd probably have done the same thing this guy did – there's no time to jerk around with a giant airplane full of passengers – we'll talk about it when we're on the ground.”

Which is what Ken & Co. have been saying.

And where exactly does the controller not listen to the request for another runway?

No time to jerk around with passengers on board?

What, you mean vector for another approach, as the aircraft has been doing all flight?

I'd love someone to tell me where the safety of the passengers have been compromised.

In fact no. First, someone can describe to me what the emergency is.

 

[Ken Stallings]

And where exactly does the controller not listen to the request for another runway?

No time to jerk around with passengers on board?

What, you mean vector for another approach, as the aircraft has been doing all flight?

I'd love someone to tell me where the safety of the passengers have been compromised.

In fact no. First, someone can describe to me what the emergency is.

We have, again, and again, and again.

 

[tigisfat]

And where exactly does the controller not listen to the request for another runway?

No time to jerk around with passengers on board?

What, you mean vector for another approach, as the aircraft has been doing all flight?

I'd love someone to tell me where the safety of the passengers have been compromised.

In fact no. First, someone can describe to me what the emergency is.

To be honest, I don't want to anymore.

 

[Ken Stallings]

To be honest, I don't want to anymore.

Nor frankly I!

In fact, I think the last thing I can contribute to this thread is this final observation:

You can always get another job. You can never get another life!

Ken

 

[Henry]

one would think that the pilot or captain
is the one responsible for the people on board
therefore would be the deciding person
from a layman who cannot fly
i would rather lose my licence than passengers
at least thats the way i see it
H

 

[Skittles]

We have, again, and again, and again.

No you havn't. I want you to describe where the safety of the passengers was compromised and the nature of the emergency. You havn't stated this once.

Even if ATC have failed to initially provide an adequate runway, then where has safety been compromised?

 

[AckAck]

Even if ATC have failed to initially provide an adequate runway, then where has safety been compromised?

Because ATC failed to provide an adequate runway, safety was compromised...

 

[PRB]

This is what I took from the two pilots I talked to yesterday. That when ATC insisted that they land on a runway they deemed unsafe, due to crosswind issues, that, essentially, constitutes an emergency. Ok, I understand what they are saying. What surprised me the most was not that they agreed with Ken d), but that they were not even surprised at this story. We're all going nuts over this story like it's a big deal, but they were just nodding their heads, listening, then acted like it was a total no-brainer that the pilot was right. They looked at me like I had two heads when I tried to make a case that this wasn't they way to handle the situation.

Then they made an analogy, to try to get me to understand how “the system” works. Military jets fly off the carrier to the beach in big packs. You don't want to get into a situation where you're critically low on fuel, but it can happen when you're all strung out in a long line, and you're number 15 to land. If you call the tower and say you are “fuel limited”, which is what you're supposed to do, they will acknowledge you and then ignore you. Because fuel limited is not fuel critical, as such does not constitute an emergency, on their part. So, what to do? You're pretty sure you will be fuel critical by the time it's your turn to land, but you don't want to get into that situation. So you call a fuel critical emergency, and ATC puts you at the head of the line. Simple. It's done all the time. The “game”, evidently, is called “how to get ATC to do what you want them to do”, and it's played out every day, with decisions like this made by pilots.

Like I said, I'm surprised to learn this, but then again, maybe not so much...

 

[Skittles]

Because ATC failed to provide an adequate runway, safety was compromised...

Why?

Are pilots scared of flying these days?

 

[MaddogK]

This is interesting.

I ran this story past the two pilots who work in same office I work in. Well, they used to be pilots, now they're simulator instructors. Anyhow, they're ex-navy EA-6B pilots, with many years experience. They hadn't heard of the incident, so we went online and found it, and listened to it.

They both agreed, with no hesitation whatever, with Ken and Tigs. Then I tried with them what I tried with you people here: “But surely there is a better way to handle this... You canna go around declaring emergencies every time you don't get your way...” The answer was “you're missing the point. If the runway ATC wants me to land on is out of limits for crosswind, and ATC won't listen to my request for another runway, I'd probably have done the same thing this guy did – there's no time to jerk around with a giant airplane full of passengers – we'll talk about it when we're on the ground.”

Which is what Ken & Co. have been saying.

This exactly why I didn't need to hear the tapes, SAFETY of the passengers is the PIC's call, whatever the controllers problem was can be worked out on the ground AFTER the passengers are safe.

Skittles: grow up, realize there's some things more important than one guys 'feelings', LIVES were at stake.

 

[Skittles]

This exactly why I didn't need to hear the tapes, SAFETY of the passengers is the PIC's call, whatever the controllers problem was can be worked out on the ground AFTER the passengers are safe.

Skittles: grow up, realize there's some things more important than one guys 'feelings', LIVES were at stake.

Grow up? Laughable. This from the person that hasn't listened to the tapes. How embarassing.

Why were lives at stake?

Why can no-one answer me this simple question. Why was there an emergency?

 

[Bone]

Making command decisions doesn't start at or after the point where lives are at stake and planes get bent. Ideally, it starts long before you are in a possible predicament. ATC on a regular basis issues clearances that exceed the limitations of the airplane... believe me it happens all of the time, and in all phases of flight. I've been give climb clearances with a crossing restriction that would have me climbing at 4000fpm up to FL380. "Sorry Mr ATC Guy, can't accept that. I don't care if you have converging traffic all around me and you need me to do a zoom climb so your computer doesn't record a conflict and you get violated...the plane can't effing do it."

You don't accept clearances that you can't comply with, that is an absolute! And, when ATC refuses to accept your refusal, you do what you have to do as the PIC.

 

[Skittles]

And, when ATC refuses to except your refusal, you do what you have to do as the PIC.

Agreed 100%, but at no point in this video does ATC refuse the request. The aircraft is simply instructed to maintain their heading.

If maintaining a heading is an emergency then remind me never to fly again.

 

[MaddogK]

Grow up? Laughable. This from the person that hasn't listened to the tapes. How embarassing.

Why were lives at stake?

Why can no-one answer me this simple question. Why was there an emergency?

Perhaps you wouldn't find it so laughable if you were on that flight, and learned the pilot put your life in danger by accepting the controllers runway assignment that put the A/C outside it's acceptable crosswind landing limit. Maybe you'd think it's a better idea to negotiate with the controller instead of putting 100% of your attention to landing your plane in less than acceptable conditions and hope that the controller relents and gives you your ideal runway, and after rejoining the pattern hope that you have the fuel to make it to the new runway assignment. If not- you NOW have an emergency.

 

[Henry]

Making command decisions doesn't start at or after the point where lives are at stake and planes get bent. Ideally, it starts long before you are in a possible predicament. ATC on a regular basis issues clearances that exceed the limitations of the airplane... believe me it happens all of the time, and in all phases of flight. I've been give climb clearances with a crossing restriction that would have me climbing at 4000fpm up to FL380. "Sorry Mr ATC Guy, can't except that. I don't care if you have converging traffic all around me and you need me to do a zoom climb so your computer doesn't record a conflict and you get violated...the plane can't effing do it."

You don't except clearances that you can't comply with, that is an absolute! And, when ATC refuses to except your refusal, you do what you have to do as the PIC.

just like msfs aint it:salute:
LOL
H