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Serious battle between ATC and pilot, pilot declares emergency to get another runway.

Serious battle between ATC and pilot, pilot declares emergency to get another runway.

  • The pilot was right to do what he did

    Votes: 25 48.1%
  • The pilot was wrong to do what he did

    Votes: 27 51.9%

  • Total voters
    52
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You guys are ridiculous.

The controller clearly stated "Maintain Runway Heading" meaning, maintain your current heading, break off the approach, and I'll get you vectors to another approach AS SOON AS I CAN GET OTHER TRAFFIC OUT OF THE WAY. Here are the facts.

1.) Declaring an emergency for winds, (while justifiable) does not give you a blank check to go flying willy-nilly wherever you want in a crowded terminal environment and blow up the traffic pattern.

2.) Who THREATENS to declare an emergency???? Either you have an emergency and declare, or you don't have one and you don't. If you threaten to declare an emergency, it means one thing; there isn't an emergency, and you're a douche-bag.

3.) Declaring an emergency gives you the right to violate the FAR's TO THE EXTENT NECESSARY to safely land the aircraft. I believe that this pilot violated more FAR's than necessary by blowing up the traffic pattern INSTEAD OF TAKING VECTORS FOR A NEW APPROACH, which the controller was working on giving him.

There is a time and place for everything, and there are jerk controllers, but in this case I believe the pilot was 100% wrong, if the only "emergency" was winds. If he had a fuel state issue, or a mechanical problem with the aircraft he should have stated so, in which case the situation would have changed.

*Note: All of the above is armchair quarterback-ing as none of us were present when the event occured. :)
 
Perhaps you wouldn't find it so laughable if you were on that flight, and learned the pilot put your life in danger by accepting the controllers runway assignment that put the A/C outside it's acceptable crosswind landing limit. Maybe you'd think it's a better idea to negotiate with the controller instead of putting 100% of your attention to landing your plane in less than acceptable conditions and hope that the controller relents and gives you your ideal runway, and after rejoining the pattern hope that you have the fuel to make it to the new runway assignment. If not- you NOW have an emergency.

Why on earth would the pilot blindly accept the controllers runway assignment? One of the main reasons that ATC provide airport information is to allow the pilot to make decisions.

Negotiate with the controller? Why would they need to do that? The controller doesn't reject their request in the slightest. He just tells them to maintain heading. Why are you talking about the controller 'relenting?'

After rejoining the patterns hope you have enough fuel? Dear me.

Perhaps you should actually listen to the tapes and then you'll realise that nothing you've said makes the slightest bit if sense.

So now we declare emergencies when there may be opportunity for emergency in the future? Next time I take off I'll bear this in mind.

"G-OE departing the circuit to the North-East. Mayday mayday, G-OE in powered and controlled flight 27 miles north of Manchester"

"Sir, what is the nature of your emergency"

"Well, there is a chance that when I arrive at your airport I will have to hold in the traffic pattern. This potentially could cause a fuel shortage (not that I calculated it before I set off...). Furthermore, there is a chance that halfway through the flight a pidgeon will pay me a visit in the cockpit. I estimate the chances of being shot at by an F-15 as 0.000054%, and the chances of an unexpected heart attack of 0.7%. Now if you'd be so kind as to clear all traffic, and to make all other airport traffic remain in the pattern (GOD HELP THEM - THEY MIGHT ALL NEED TO DECLARE EMERGENCIES?!) whilst I doddle in at my own leisure. Cheerio."
 
You guys are ridiculous.

The controller clearly stated "Maintain Runway Heading" meaning, maintain your current heading, break off the approach, and I'll get you vectors to another approach AS SOON AS I CAN GET OTHER TRAFFIC OUT OF THE WAY.

Ahh, a mindreader. maybe the controller said "Maintain Runway Heading" to buy him time to take a squirt or refill his coffee cup. If he meant ' maintain your current heading, break off the approach, and I'll get you vectors to another approach' he should've said so. All you've done is confirm the controller was incompetent.
 
Ahh, a mindreader. maybe the controller said "Maintain Runway Heading" to buy him time to take a squirt or refill his coffee cup. If he meant ' maintain your current heading, break off the approach, and I'll get you vectors to another approach' he should've said so. All you've done is confirm the controller was incompetent.

What difference does that make? The controller could be having a break to scratch his arse and have a good fart. He tells the pilot to maintain heading. What is the emergency here?
 
What difference does that make? The controller could be having a break to scratch his arse and have a good fart. He tells the pilot to maintain heading. What is the emergency here?

Yer right, a 767 is as easy and quick to setup for landing as that cessna you fly. A few minutes of delay wouldn't have mattered either way.
 
A few minutes of delay wouldn't have mattered either way.

So you think that the pilot's response is justifiable based on the fact he couldn't be delayed by a couple of minutes, yet you have no problem with the numerous other aircraft that are delayed by significantly more than a couple of minutes in order to make way for the emergency landing?
 
ok guys keep your hair on
and no personal comments
if it was black and white there would not be all this fuss
would there
fortunately no one was hurt
the poll at the moment is 10-9
H
 
So you think that the pilot's response is justifiable based on the fact he couldn't be delayed by a couple of minutes, yet you have no problem with the numerous other aircraft that are delayed by significantly more than a couple of minutes in order to make way for the emergency landing?

Eh, I was being phecious (sp).

Thanks Haining for the link, this post (#60) has some added info I found interesting:
<!-- message --> Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> Is the 767 in any way unusual in terms of the maximum crosswind component that is considered safe...or was there a whole queue of planes with a similar problem and this was just the first crew to make a fuss? </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
In addition to the crosswind, the wind value was given at 100 degrees from the right which has a tailwind component for consideration 320/23 gusting 35, and Runway 22L/04R is the shortest runway at JFK!

In addition, eye balling a visual without G/S on 22L (from the tape) or possibly without PAPI lights, an extra couple of feet high over threshold adds a lot of extra meters at the very end which might not be there if they screw up the visual with strong crosswind and tail wind component.

The landing was safe in the end, good for the commander if he deemed this was required. But now he is on the ground, he is paid well for providing the answers to his actions as the captain/commander.

So, controller doesn't realize his initial runway assignment is marginal until PIC makes a big stink about it.

Hmmmm
 
Ahh, a mindreader. maybe the controller said "Maintain Runway Heading" to buy him time to take a squirt or refill his coffee cup. If he meant ' maintain your current heading, break off the approach, and I'll get you vectors to another approach' he should've said so. All you've done is confirm the controller was incompetent.

MaddogK,

1.) Lets quit calling people incompetent, huh? I'd like to see you survive a day as a JFK tower controller. Lets face it, we're all being ready room commando's here, don't make it worse by judging people's abilities. Let's keep to discussing whether the actions in questions were legitimate.

2.) "Maintain Runway Heading" is not standard terminology to continue an approach. I agree that the controller could have done a better job of communicating that he was working on arranging vectors to the 31 visual, (not something that can be done in seconds with as many aircraft in the air as were that day) at the same time, however, the pilot should have done a better job communicating his "emergency". A simple "We can't land on 22 due to wind limitations" would have sufficed. "Min fuel" was not even mentioned by the crew, and as such fuel was not a factor in the controller's mind.

3.) Without knowing more information, I believe the PIC abused his right to violate from the FAR's upon declaring an emergency.
 
Right, without knowing the whole story we're all just speculating. The tape was edited, but I still feel the controller was in error, the pilot was arrogant in the way he demanded a different runway, and the whole incident could've been handled better.

there isn't an emergency, and you're a douche-bag.
Lets quit calling people incompetent

:kilroy:

I still maintain the pilot did what he needed to do to ensure his passengers safety, and have voted accordingly.
 
When was the passenger's safety in danger? I agree that the pilot did the right thing in refusing the x-wind runway assigned, but I don't understand why he couldn't have just accepted vectors the visual runway 31 without declaring an emergency?

Touche btw...I'll refrain from judgemental comments myself in the future ;)
 
So, controller doesn't realize his initial runway assignment is marginal until PIC makes a big stink about it.

Hmmmm

You hit the nail on the head. The tower controllers are required to keep up with the weather conditions at their airport and make adjustments are needed to preserve safety.

Ken
 
You guys are ridiculous....... If you threaten to declare an emergency, it means one thing; there isn't an emergency, and you're a douche-bag.



seriousdgif.gif
 
OK.. as I happen to wander in here most days and tend to read a variety of things and have controlled airplanes longer than many of the pilots here have been able to read I finally got to the point where I have to toss in more than a couple of cents worth.

(Excerpts from the initial AvWeb report on May 10th http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1627-full.html#202510)
Speaking for the JFK Controller union, Steve Abraham told ABC news the pilot "had no choice. He couldn't land 22L, it would have been illegal for him," due to the crosswind. Wind was 320 at 23 gusting to 35, at the time. JFK's main runway, 31 Left, has been closed for upgrades for about eight weeks, and controllers say that maintaining the flow of traffic at the airport has led to some less than ideal clearances.

(typical media reporting, there is no JFK Controller union per se)
Obviously, the concerns were not unique on that day and it's been well-documented already.


FAA spokesman Arlene Sarlac told AVweb Thursday that the agency studied the situation "for over a year" prior to closing the runway and worked with airlines who "agreed to reduce their schedules during this closure time." The FAA says the situation at JFK is safe.
So, it's not like it was a surprize set of conditions... I would offer an opinion that every JFK-bound airline has numerous NOTAMS and Ops Letters posted in dispatch and sent to crews. The discussions about procedures at JFK during the construction would have been signed-off by the airlines as well as the PNYA and the FAA. While airlines obviously don't like carrying extra fuel and have been shown to 'shave it' on occasion, there must have been (or should have been) conversations between crews and company ops regarding the possibility of extended approaches into JFK, including the extra flight time if a runway change is made. However there is also pressure on pilots from 'company' to keep fuel uploads to the minimum required with no 'extra for the wife and kids' (that's why SIDS and STARS came into existence and are so important now)-and pilots as well as controllers are subject to performance appraisals from management.

JFK's 14,572 foot-long 13R/31L, was closed in March to undergo a four-month-long facelift that includes widening and repaving. The closure is expected to last through June and means that traffic must be diverted to the airport's three remaining runways. Controllers say the American Airlines event shows that maintaining the traffic flow, without incurring delays, has presented challenges. According to the FAA, the situation was studied ahead of time, the airlines are flying on reduced schedules and operations at the airport are safe.

Seems some of the pilots and spectators here and elsewhere can't differentiate between an individual controller and the FAA (two groups that are often at loggerheads - when it doesn't go the public's way it's the fault of a union, but if it's a policy it's a dang bureaucracy). The JFK controllers -as at many other facilities have fought preferential runways and local procedures as hard as the pilots for the same safety reasons, but airlines want the shortest route so are loathe to press the political fight. At the same time, the FAA is dependent on the taxpayer dollar (there are more lawyers than pilots) and has been forced (often in court) to bow to the NIMBYs, while at the same time pressure from the poor, cash-strapped airlines for minimum-distance approaches has ended up with a lot of these 'agreements' that neither the ALPA nor NATCA have had a vote upon. Factor in that the airports are dependant on revenue and don't want to be seen as the cause of some businessman being delayed if a corner can be cut or traffic jammed in. There is another measurement - "Runway Acceptance Rate" (how many can you shove into the bottom of the funnel in an hour - working in exits, distance to the ramp, crossing traffic, taxi flows) and most airports have some combinations that are far better than others.. and with the loss of a parallel runway those get more complicated at the best of times. I think, come push to shove, most pilots would opt for landing on a shorter runway, at light weight with a contrary wind than to try to depart (in this case 22) heavily loaded with a tailwind component. Everyone should be able to imagine what it would be like using ONLY Rwy 31R for arrivals and departures and what those delays would cost in time and money to the airlines. It's easy to just view it from a single viewpoint and think it's simple if you don't look at how the system HAS to work to accommodate ALL the stakeholders (including the paying pax demands for "on-time performance"). This ain't Kansas Toto - it's one of the most complex ATC/airport environments in the world.

After receiving their clearance, the crew of American Flight 2 said, "We can't land on 22," adding, "We're breaking off approach and if you don't give us to Runway 31R, we're going to declare an emergency." The controller responded "alright, I'll pass it along, fly runway heading for now."
For the Tower controller to unilaterally 'just swing one plane around to another runway' -which was being used for only departures- several events have to take place. First, the Tower (local controller) has to ensure that there is no ground traffic in the way (there was.. an aircraft had just been turned onto 31R - and that Ground stops all possible crossing traffic. Then (at the same time) has to hit the hotline to Approach to make space for a crossing-runway landing with what could be a stream of traffic with minimum separation on final for 22L (in fact, an AWE Airbus had to execute a missed approach) and estimate the time required for a circling procedure to sequence that other traffic, and coordinate the circling with Departure as AA2 may have had to widen into the departure or arrival flows in congested airspace, AND pass traffic to the diverging aircraft and any others that may be in comflict. Some of that HAS to be done to reduce or remove the possibility of a nose-to-nose conflict due to the circling 767. (all that in less time than I took to type it and about as long as it takes you to read it.)
With no indication from the pilot of a time-critical situation
, the safest, most organized and logical process is to have AA2 continue straight ahead in stable flight while some of the coordination is done (remember AA2 is still likely 6-10 miles on final approach at initial contact with the tower) and even if he's going to do a circling, still could maintain 1000-1500 ft down the runway and circle to a left-hand pattern for 31R.

Note that the wx was not serious - the pilot of AA2 commenced (as stated) a Visual approach for 31R so there were a lot of plan-able options. The pilot was able to commence a turn, circle and line up for 31R while close in to the airport - in fact close enough that pax on the Airbus following on the approach for 22 saw the 767 'turning at them' as they were going around. Not the large, stable approach assumed to be required. What would have happened, in spite of the pilot's considerable skill, if he had misjudged that tight, visual approach and then had to perform a balked landing and another circuit (still in an 'emergency situation')?

For those who advocate ATC immediately and unilaterally changing runways to be most appropriate for the wind, remember that the policy dictated by FAA administration, in agreement with the airlines and the Port of NY Authority probably has agreed-to limitations (as evidenced by the on-going use of "land 22, depart 31R") that had been in process for some time that day.

Also look at a chart of the area. It would not surprise me to find a set of agreements between NYC TRACON and the various towers in the area that the 'active runway' has to be coordinated and similar for all area IFR airports to avoid numerous conflicting traffic flows over the whole NYC area. Therefore, a runway change at one airport (eg. when there is a significant wind shift) takes time (I'll guess from experience, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 minutes for each of the towers to shift ground flows, circle a few (and still negotiate out-of-wind landings and departures for the most immediately involved) AND for TRACON a lead time of at least 20 minutes to vector everyone to the new runway, switch STARS and SIDS and likely detour some aircraft well out of the way to make room for the new flow AND for CENTER to begin reroutes and reissue revised clearances (in the event of communication failure) which starts perhaps 90 miles out and also requires coordination with adjacent Centers. As I look at the chart I can see all sorts of scenarios where a runway change at JFK would effectively shut down operations at, at least, LGA, NWK until it could be accomodated in the whole flow.

Bear in mind that no one has produced any evidence showing whether the crew of AA2 made their situation known at any point prior to contacting JFK tower (approx. 3 minutes from the threshold). While it IS difficult, the "system" (the human part of ATC) can make it work for an individual aircraft if there is a known reason - and with minimal extra fuel required if the plan starts early enough. BTW, ATC does know of general crosswind limitations but, unless provided locally, does not know individual operators' procedures or limits. (I once was required to file against an airline pilot for landing below prescribed wx minima, only to find out the airline had a special approval for lower...). With no apparent indication of ANY 'minimum fuel' issue the question is compounded as to what course can be taken.

Also consider things that we may never hear about...
  • Had the controllers (plural) been subjected to constant complaints all day from pilots who had then gone on to land safely with the crosswind and (without knowing AAL limits) heard another pilot crying "Wolf!" without a timely explanation of the absolute need for 31R?
  • Were the winds increasing or had the same conditions applied to one or two or three hours of preceding traffic?
  • Had those winds JUST increased beyond the AAL B767 limits or had the crew discussed options all the way in from Ohio?
  • Was this the first such concern/complaint that day for the ATC crews on duty?
  • Were they already in the process of that 20 min. - 1 hour exercise in coordination to change runways?
  • Was it easier to do a low-level "emergency" circling over New York and explain it to the pax as "ATC's fault" than to explain to them an overshoot and vectors due to a Company limitation and airport policies that they wouldn't have the interest or knowledge to understand - or that may make some question the capabilities of American Airlines when other flights beat them to the gate?
  • was the crew running short of flight time?
  • Was the captain due at his kids' soccer game?
  • Was the Captain pissed at the thought of being number one and then having to be number 6 (or two or 12) - and don't tell me he'd never think that...
  • Had he had bad experiences at JFK and developed an attitude of "I'll show them who's boss"? (and no sanctimonious cries of "NEVER!").
I have to say I am dismayed that so many people (on all the forums) with so little knowledge and experience hold such inflexible and simplistic opinions. Controllers and the system they make work are not perfect, but neither are pilots and that's partly why there are courses on Crew Resource Management (CRM) and 'cockpit decision making' is trained right from the PPL level. It all minimizes the problems, but cannot ever remove ALL of them. BTW, some airlines include ATC in the CRM process as part of the team that moves pax.

Until the investigation is complete (and with the media attention and this sort of discussion all over the Web there WILL be an investigation to determine: "Was there any factor that required an "immediate landing"?") no one knows the truth.

Until then, remember the old saying about "having walked a mile in his shoes"...
 
Whoa, that's a lot to read. The points were well made though.

I would like to suggest that you can't base the correctness of a single crew's decision on whether or not other crews did or didn't complain. Pilots can be like sheep. I've seen conditions deteriorating in the terminal environment where it seems like noone wants to cause trouble or blow the whistle until one lone ranger makes a decision. Pilots will continue to shoot approaches into conditions they know aren't likely to be good until they hear a single pilot retreating, and then there's a flood of changed minds. Personally, I'll admit to letting the experienced captains of large aircraft influence me. If I'm headed somewhere and I hear a 50 year veteran throw in the towel, I'll make that call without looking myself (as someone knows enough about flying to know that i don't know anything about flying).
 
Sirgalahad,

Your points are well crafted and make many logical points. If the conditions were indeed VFR (a point that seems to conflict with other written reports I had read specifying IFR conditions) then a circle to land could have been initiated far enough away to facilitate a relatively easy solution.

However, if that option were available, then the controller should have overtly offered it to the pilot. My understanding is that due to the IFR conditions, it was not a prudent option.

Does anyone disagree that had the controller said, "Copy, unable runway 22, level off at ths time, proceed current heading, expect vectors for ILS runway 31R," that the pilot would have declared the emergency?

I'm convinced the pilot would have not played that card.

You are right in that the controller cannot control the myriad of factors that made him press for runway 22. However, the pilot was even less in control of those factors, but he was ultimately being asked to pay the price for it and bear 100% of the ultimate responsibility for it.

That is why the pilot has the emergency option and why in my view he was right to use it.

Cheers,

Ken
 
Jump!
Again ........:173go1:

Wombat and a friend cruising in a Piper Warrior at 1,500 feet.

friend: "Hey Wombat, remind me to tell maintenance about this funny ammeter when we get down".

Wombat's friend immediately hears a slam and then the slipstream roaring. He looks up just as Wombat promptly departs the aircraft, ripcord in hand.

:icon_lol::ernae:
 
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