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I know I'm risking a fight here, but...
- Thread starter Rami
- Start date
Jagdflieger
Jr. Admin
Rami,
In my personal CFS 2 library, I have them all under the "Commonwealth" banner.
In my personal CFS 2 library, I have them all under the "Commonwealth" banner.
bearcat241
SOH-CM-2023
Yup...that pretty much summed up the umbrella under which the Crown grouped of its empirical holdings also. You can drop India and New Zealand in there as well.
SPman
Charter Member
In Europe - yes. Most of them were squadrons contained within the RAF. Otherwise, as Pips said. Commonwealth pretty much covers it.
bearcat241
SOH-CM-2023
Yes Pips, the RAAF and RNZAF operated under their own nationalities or flags in the PTO - that's a given fact. But their nationalities (or goverments) operated strictly under the colonial interests of the larger Commonwealth umbrella. They were not as independent as you think. The RNZN is one example. Check this out:
History
Main article: History of the Royal New Zealand Navy
Pre-World War I
The first recorded maritime combat activity in New Zealand occurred when Dutch explorer Abel Tasman was attacked by Māori in war waka off the northern tip of the South Island in December 1642.
The New Zealand Navy did not exist as a separate military force until 1941.[1]The association of the Royal Navy with New Zealand began with the arrival of Lieutenant (later Captain) James Cook in 1769, who completed two subsequent journeys to New Zealand in 1773 and 1777. Occasional visits by Royal Navy ships were made from the late 18th century until the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi in 1840. William Hobson, a crucial player in the drafting of the Treaty, was in New Zealand as a captain in the Royal Navy. The signing of the Treaty of Waitangi made New Zealand a colony in the British Empire, so the defence of the coastline became the responsibility of the Royal Navy. That role was fulfilled until World War I, and the Royal Navy also played a part in the New Zealand Wars: for example, a gunboat shelled fortified Māori pā from the Waikato River in order to defeat the Māori King Movement.
World War I and the Inter-War period
In 1909, the New Zealand government decided to fund the purchase of the battlecruiser HMS New Zealand for the Royal Navy, which saw action throughout World War I in Europe. The passing of the Naval Defence Act 1913 created the New Zealand Naval Forces, still as a part of the Royal Navy, and from 1921 to 1941 the force was known as the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy. The first purchase by the New Zealand government for the New Zealand Naval Forces was the cruiser HMS Philomel, which escorted New Zealand land forces to occupy the German colony of Samoa in 1914. Philomel saw further action under the command of the Royal Navy in the Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf.
Between World War I and World War II, the New Zealand Division operated 14 ships, including the cruisers HMS Achilles and HMS Leander, and the minesweeper HMS Wakakura.
World War II
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/wiki/File:HMNZS_Achilles_(AWM_P03626-012).jpg
HMNZS Achilles
HMNZS Achilles participated in the first major naval battle of World War II, the Battle of the River Plate off the River Plate estuary between Argentina and Uruguay, in December 1939. Achilles and two other cruisers, HMS Ajax and HMS Exeter, were in an operation that forced the crew of the German pocket battleship Admiral Graf Spee to scuttle her rather than face the loss of many more German seamen's lives. This decision apparently infuriated Hitler. The Achilles moved to the Pacific, and was working with the US Navy when damaged by a Japanese bomb off New Georgia. Following repair she served alongside the British Pacific Fleet until the war's end.
HMNZS Leander escorted the New Zealand Expeditionary Force to the Middle East in 1940, and was then deployed in the Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea, and the Indian Ocean. The Leander was subjected to air and naval attack from Axis forces, conducted bombardments, and escorted convoys. In February 1941, the Leander sank the Italian auxiliary cruiser Ramb I in the Indian Ocean.
In 1943, after serving further time in the Mediterranean, the Leander returned to the Pacific Ocean. She assisted in the destruction of the Japanese cruiser Jintsu and being seriously damaged by torpedoes during the Battle of Kolombangara. The extent of the damage to Leander saw her docked for repairs until the end of the war.
As the war progressed the size of the RNZN greatly increased, and by the end of the war there were over 60 ships in commission. These ships participated as part of the British and Commonwealth effort against the Axis in Europe, and against the Japanese in the Pacific. They also played an important role in the defence of New Zealand, from German raiders, especially when the threat of invasion from Japan appeared imminent in 1942. Many merchant ships were requisitioned and armed for help in defence. One of these was HMNZS Monowai, which saw action against a Japanese submarine off Fiji in 1942. In 1941-1942, it was decided in an agreement between the New Zealand and United States governments that the best role for the RNZN in the Pacific was as part of the United States Navy, so operational control of the RNZN was transferred to the South West Pacific Area command, and its ships joined United States 7th Fleet taskforces.
In 1943, the light cruiser HMS Gambia was transferred to the RNZN as HMNZS Gambia. In November 1944, the British Pacific Fleet, a joint British Commonwealth taskforce, was formed, based in Sydney, Australia. Most RNZN ships were transferred to the BPF, including Gambia and Achilles. They took part in the Battle of Okinawa and operations in the Sakishima Islands, near Japan. In August 1945, HMNZS Gambia was New Zealand's representative at the surrender of Japan.
Pips
Charter Member
Not quite sure what point your trying to make Bearcat. The initial topic is how to group Australian, New Zealand, South African and Canadian aircraft operations. To which my answer applies.
However your bringing in a whole different variant, namely navies for colonial powers; but clouding the issue with national government autonomy.
As far a navies go, neither the RAN nor the RNZN had primarily the number(s) to conduct operations as a purely stand alone force (unlike their respective air forces - the less so for the RNZAF). Hence operational direction of ships of both nations invariably fell under either the auspices of Britain or the USA, dependant upon their Theatre of use.
The level of government autonomy shown during the war changed greatly in both countries, arguably more so in Australia than New Zealand. Under the very pro-British government of Sir Robert Menzies Australia charged into WWII, promising support for the mother-country (as Menzies often referred to the UK). Under Menzies Australia supported total committment to Europe. That pledge was most unpopular at home in Australia, and the Menzies Goverment was ousted in October 1941, whence John Curtin's Labour Party formed Goverment.
Curtin had little time for Britain, and Churchill in particular. After the (percieved) betrayal of Australian interests with the fall of Malaya and the desertion of British support in the perilous days of early 1942, Curtin turned to the US for support and protection. From that point on Curtin pursued an Australia first, US second and Britain last policy.
A speech for which he is justly famous was made on 26 December, 1941; clearly outlining Australia's priorities:
We look for a solid and impregnable barrier of the Democracies against the three Axis powers, and we refuse to accept the dictum that the Pacific struggle must be treated as a subordinate segment of the general conflict. By that it is not meant that any one of the other theatres of war is of less importance than the Pacific, but that Australia asks for a concerted plan evoking the greatest strength at the Democracies' disposal, determined upon hurling Japan back. The Australian Government, therefore regards the Pacific struggle as primarily one in which the United States and Australia must have the fullest say in the direction of the Democracies' fighting plan. Without any inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the United Kingdom. We know the problems that the United Kingdom faces. We know the dangers of dispersal of strength, but we know too,that Australia can go and Britain can still hold on. We are, therefore, determined that Australia shall not go, and we shall exert all our energies towards the shaping of a plan, with the United States as its keystone, which will give to our country some confidence of being able to hold out until the tide of battle swings against the enemy.
To that end Curtin had the moral courage to demand return of Australia's land Army (which Churchill fought tooth and nail to first delay, then sideline in India) and naval units serving in the Mediterranean, and set production, logistic and supply priorities for the Pacific war. Under the Labour Government Australia's European support was restricted to supplying a percentage of airmen to Britain through the Empire Air Training Scheme, and naval units from time to time.
However your bringing in a whole different variant, namely navies for colonial powers; but clouding the issue with national government autonomy.
As far a navies go, neither the RAN nor the RNZN had primarily the number(s) to conduct operations as a purely stand alone force (unlike their respective air forces - the less so for the RNZAF). Hence operational direction of ships of both nations invariably fell under either the auspices of Britain or the USA, dependant upon their Theatre of use.
The level of government autonomy shown during the war changed greatly in both countries, arguably more so in Australia than New Zealand. Under the very pro-British government of Sir Robert Menzies Australia charged into WWII, promising support for the mother-country (as Menzies often referred to the UK). Under Menzies Australia supported total committment to Europe. That pledge was most unpopular at home in Australia, and the Menzies Goverment was ousted in October 1941, whence John Curtin's Labour Party formed Goverment.
Curtin had little time for Britain, and Churchill in particular. After the (percieved) betrayal of Australian interests with the fall of Malaya and the desertion of British support in the perilous days of early 1942, Curtin turned to the US for support and protection. From that point on Curtin pursued an Australia first, US second and Britain last policy.
A speech for which he is justly famous was made on 26 December, 1941; clearly outlining Australia's priorities:
We look for a solid and impregnable barrier of the Democracies against the three Axis powers, and we refuse to accept the dictum that the Pacific struggle must be treated as a subordinate segment of the general conflict. By that it is not meant that any one of the other theatres of war is of less importance than the Pacific, but that Australia asks for a concerted plan evoking the greatest strength at the Democracies' disposal, determined upon hurling Japan back. The Australian Government, therefore regards the Pacific struggle as primarily one in which the United States and Australia must have the fullest say in the direction of the Democracies' fighting plan. Without any inhibitions of any kind, I make it clear that Australia looks to America, free of any pangs as to our traditional links or kinship with the United Kingdom. We know the problems that the United Kingdom faces. We know the dangers of dispersal of strength, but we know too,that Australia can go and Britain can still hold on. We are, therefore, determined that Australia shall not go, and we shall exert all our energies towards the shaping of a plan, with the United States as its keystone, which will give to our country some confidence of being able to hold out until the tide of battle swings against the enemy.
To that end Curtin had the moral courage to demand return of Australia's land Army (which Churchill fought tooth and nail to first delay, then sideline in India) and naval units serving in the Mediterranean, and set production, logistic and supply priorities for the Pacific war. Under the Labour Government Australia's European support was restricted to supplying a percentage of airmen to Britain through the Empire Air Training Scheme, and naval units from time to time.
bearcat241
SOH-CM-2023
That Curtin certainly made a strong case. I can see why his speech is so well remembered. When the enemy is at the gates with one foot inside, you can't fault a man for looking to his strongest and most cooperative ally as the best path to survival, regardless of traditions or kinships. Thanks for sharing that...
flying_spud
Charter Member
Truth is that all funds, aircraft and training was provided by the RAF via the British Government (and British taxpayers).
For most of the war the RAF was the umbrella organisation with the sole exception of the RAAF and RNZAF in the Pacific.
Often RCAF/RAAF/RNZAF/SAAF/IAF/Free French/Polish/Dutch/Belguim and early on US Eagle Squadrons were just RAF units in everything but name.
Also the term "RCAF" for example also referred to the aircrew concerned rather than a seperate Air Force. Note that this remained the throughout the war with regard to CW pilots in the RN.
Truth is that without British funding and equipment most of these CW units wouldn't have existed - save for the Pacific. Of course this is not to decry any of the CW or "Free" airforces in any way - they played a HUGE role in WW11 and Britain would have been at a severe disadvantage without them.
Hope that helps.
For most of the war the RAF was the umbrella organisation with the sole exception of the RAAF and RNZAF in the Pacific.
Often RCAF/RAAF/RNZAF/SAAF/IAF/Free French/Polish/Dutch/Belguim and early on US Eagle Squadrons were just RAF units in everything but name.
Also the term "RCAF" for example also referred to the aircrew concerned rather than a seperate Air Force. Note that this remained the throughout the war with regard to CW pilots in the RN.
Truth is that without British funding and equipment most of these CW units wouldn't have existed - save for the Pacific. Of course this is not to decry any of the CW or "Free" airforces in any way - they played a HUGE role in WW11 and Britain would have been at a severe disadvantage without them.
Hope that helps.
Jagdflieger
Jr. Admin
Just to muddy the waters further, the first "R" in all of those Commonwealth air force names is for "Royal." The senior Royal for all of those countries was/is the Queen of England. While I haven't been to Australia lately and can't speak to their money anymore, I do know that She is still the featured portrait on Canadian money.