About B-17

[maguireted]

As you know, I'm German, Berlinerin.my parents have experienced the bombing of 1942/1945. It was hell.It is strange to fly even virtually a bomber like B17.The same plane who destroyed my city.However , I like this plane , and don't know why.Hilde said "it is only a plane by computer" but she's a young woman and she's an engeneer in plane, I think she doens't understand all.I remember mutti to be chocked , always.I am not a neonazi , I am not "pro patria" , in fact I hate politics. I hate the NSDAP. But the B17 is a wonderfull plane very difficult to fly and so
interesting.I think too about the young men inside the bomber who were kill by der FLAK or die Luftwaffe.In the war , there is only death , sadness , blood , bad memory and pain .traurig....
When I fly with the B-17 I never go over my country. very strange feeling.
Aufrichtig , Yours Anna

 

[Snave]

The B-17 was not developed for the bombing of German cities. It's genesis was most assuredly pre-war, a war that Germany and their Axis partner Japan instigated.

The fact is that German-built cars (and American-built cars for that matter) have cumulatively killed or seriously injured orders of magnitude greater numbers than WWII ever did, and the most produced car in history is the VW Beetle - a product of Nazi ideology and financing, which set the financial framework for Volkswagen, who persist to this day as a major car manufacturer.

If you don't feel uncomfortable climbing behind the wheel of your car, then there is no reason to feel uncomfortable flying a virtual representation of an airplane, warplane or not, any more than your heritage, over which YOU had no control.

Perhaps a slight case of over-sensitivity? Can you not enjoy the B-17 for the merits of the modelling, rather than the association? If not, perhaps it is best to steer well clear of it. And Audis, VW's and all Skodas.

 

[HighGround22]

.
Yep, that rather sums it all up very nicely, Snave.

 

[glennc]

Anna,

I am American, my wife is Japanese, both with parents (now all deceased) that were on different sides of that war. I "fly" warbirds mostly as a technical exercise and in admiration of the airplanes themselves.

What you are describing, to me, sounds like a tribute and memorial to the dead on all sides. That's not bad. It's not unusual to hear of stories of the participants of WWII on all sides meeting 50-60 years later. They honor the role each person had in the war, acknowledging that many of the direct participants on the ground and in cockpits were all doing for the same reasons, adjusted for geography. Most were not political. Only trying to stay alive.

Glenn

 

[maguireted]

I am widow.My husband was American from Boston USA .I learned a lot about the U.SA. About the B17 it is only a feeling.Oh no I never ever wanted to do a trial. We Germans we are in bad position to give lessons to everybody. It is only a state of mind. I love USA , !I miss my husband, we understand very well! if I hurt someone, I'm totally sorry. Anna apologizes

 

[Bjoern]

Hilde said "it is only a plane by computer" but she's a young woman and she's an engeneer in plane, I think she doens't understand all.

No one ever does.
If it wasn't for my half-brilliant excuse that the abilities you develop with extensive 3D modelling can be useful in a CAD environment as well (photo -> 3D; abstraction in general) my parents would be complaining way more about me spending time doing that Do328.

And Audis, VW's and all Skodas.

Skoda ain't german. And occupied territory doesn't count.

We Germans we are in bad position to give lessons to everybody.

We aren't. In fact, we *should* give lessons to everybody since coped with the whole time from 1933 to 1945 quite well.
Our current "constitution" is well regarded throughout the world and has mechanisms that prevent anything like the "Notstands-" and "Ermächtigungsgesetze" from happening again. It also places great value on human rights and personal freedom. Our military employs an "orders have to be checked for unethical content and have to be disregarded and reported in case" policy so that any massacres of non-combatants can't be done anymore. We've got a lot of well integrated immigrants in our society, we've buried old differences with our neighbours and started cultural exchanges and international friendships and we've successfully integrated ourselves in multinational military alliances. We've even managed to co-found one of the biggest alliances in world history with nearly every other nation on our part of the continent.
And our technical expertise and cultural achievements are in high demand around the globe.

So why shouldn't we like what we've achieved from 1945 on?

 

[falcon409]

I am widow.My husband was American from Boston USA .I learned a lot about the U.SA. About the B17 it is only a feeling.Oh no I never ever wanted to do a trial. We Germans we are in bad position to give lessons to everybody. It is only a state of mind. I love USA , !I miss my husband, we understand very well! if I hurt someone, I'm totally sorry. Anna apologizes

No need to apologize Anna. I dare say there are probably a large number of the folks who fly in FSX and FS9 who have attachments to certain areas of the world, either from direct contact or thru relatives that concerned the many conflicts this world has subjected itself to, including Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands, The European Theatre, The Middle East and so on. I am reminded of those times in Vietnam and the Middle East every time I fly the terrain in those areas and feel the nostalgia and the anxiety I felt being part of that.

Your reluctance to fly the B-17 over your countryside is not so different really and perfectly understandable. We all cope with similar feelings, each in our own way. Not to worry, you are a member of a much larger family here and I doubt anyone would or should find fault with your expressions. Good to see you back in here, by the way.:salute:

 

[jetstreamsky]

No need to apologize Anna............

Your reluctance to fly the B-17 over your countryside is not so different really and perfectly understandable. We all cope with similar feelings, each in our own way. Not to worry, you are a member of a much larger family here and I doubt anyone would or should find fault with your expressions. Good to see you back in here, by the way.:salute:

Hear hear!

 

[maguireted]

No need to apologize Anna. I dare say there are probably a large number of the folks who fly in FSX and FS9 who have attachments to certain areas of the world, either from direct contact or thru relatives that concerned the many conflicts this world has subjected itself to, including Korea, Vietnam, The Falklands, The European Theatre, The Middle East and so on. I am reminded of those times in Vietnam and the Middle East every time I fly the terrain in those areas and feel the nostalgia and the anxiety I felt being part of that.

Your reluctance to fly the B-17 over your countryside is not so different really and perfectly understandable. We all cope with similar feelings, each in our own way. Not to worry, you are a member of a much larger family here and I doubt anyone would or should find fault with your expressions. Good to see you back in here, by the way.:salute:

Thanks Very much Herr Falcon409 , for your support, you are American, you can only understand myself. Thank you, sincerely your Anna :salute:

 

[Thoe6969]

Falcon is correct,no need for apologies here.Most of us here have those kind of feelings about somewhere,mine is flying over Viet Nam.I,m just glad your back and feeling better.Fly and be Happy.

 

[Snave]

No one ever does.
Skoda ain't german. And occupied territory doesn't count.

You need to check your facts, man: Today, Skoda is OWNED by Volkswagen, and during the war after the occupation of Czechoslovakia, the Škoda works was turned into part of Hermann Göring Werke serving the German World War II effort.
The point is that no-one is innocent. Many of todays multi-nationals got that way because of war contracts or political connections with unsavoury sources... But should that stop us driving German cars? Or flying American planes - either in real life or in the simulator. Of course not.

We would like to think we are the Lessons Learned of our Forefathers, but in reality we simply perpetuate our own versions of politically-contrived wars, corporately-driven `anti-terrorism` operations and campaigns of misinformation designed to hoodwink the masses into massive arms build-ups that serve no useful end - except for the profits of those who make the weapons, and those who are empowered by the use of them.

But at the same time, almost ALL modern accoutrements that we accept as `good`, `decent` or even `technical` have, at their root, some kind of military conception: GPS, microwave ovens, digital radio, fuel injection systems, the airplanes we actually fly in. They all share the common progenitor in weaponology and research and development driven by the mighty military budgets and the seemingly incessant need to travel to far off foreign places, meet far-off foreign people, and impose our will on them.

So no one is innocent, yet the simple pleasure of enjoying a technically-advanced product on our own computers need not be something that we need to earnestly soul-search about. Let's just have FUN and enjoy it for what it is, not what it represents in history...

 

[Bjoern]

You need to check your facts, man: Today, Skoda is OWNED by Volkswagen, and during the war after the occupation of Czechoslovakia, the Škoda works was turned into part of Hermann Göring Werke serving the German World War II effort.

It's still a czech brand with a mostly czech history. Where the tech comes from doesn't matter (nowadays anyways since we're a globalised planet where borders are only formal).

So no one is innocent, yet the simple pleasure of enjoying a technically-advanced product on our own computers need not be something that we need to earnestly soul-search about. Let's just have FUN and enjoy it for what it is, not what it represents in history...

Well, but Anna did a bit of thinking and put as much emphasis of the historical importance and personal connection of this aircraft as on its rendition for (and implementation into) MSFS. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Mr.Mugel]

I must say that I love the shape and the grace of the B-17, I love it in FS, and it was an amazing moment, when it first came into sight at Hahnweide. They even did some dogfighting around it, and even when those planes came here and dropped their bombs, the planes themselves are just graceful in my opinion. Seeing those planes united over Germany again reminded of what has happened, but it showed, too, that we moved on, that these aircraft could meet again in peace.

 

[Alan_A]

Anna -

I sympathize. I had similar mixed feelings a few years ago when trying to play U-boat simulations - Aces of the Deep and Silent Hunter III. I'd followed the subject for years - I read the novel Das Boot years before the film came out, and then I saw the film in all its different versions. But when it came time to actually take on the role of U-boat commander, that felt different, and I couldn't do it happily. My ancestry is Ukranian-Jewish, and none of my family who stayed in Ukraine survived. The first time I was confronted with an Allied troopship, and thought about the situation - having to massacre Allied troops on their way to try to end Nazi control of Europe - well, I couldn't get any enjoyment out of it. I probably had that in common with at least some of the officers of the Kriegsmarine but to me, it wasn't a source of entertainment and I gave it up.

But I continue to try to read about the subject and understand the circumstances and motivations of everyone on all sides. Just recently, in coming back up to speed about the air war over Europe (thanks to the A2A B-17), I went through Harry Crosby's memoir, A Wing and a Prayer, in which he talks about the enormous respect the U.S. aircrews developed for the Luftwaffe; I'm now partway through Caldwell and Muller's The Luftwaffe Over Germany, trying to get a better sense of the pilots and units who fought against the Eighth Air Force.

I've never flown a simulated Luftwaffe aircraft, but when A2A gives one the Accusim treatment, I will. I'll try to tell myself that I'm getting a better sense of the lives of the pilots who wound up in it. Would I want to fly it in a simulated combat campaign? Probably not.

A few other points - you could always, in your own mind, cast yourself and your B-17 in some other role. Especially if our great repainters get inspired, it might be a maritime patrol aircraft, or some civilian variant, or a modern airshow aircraft (that's how many of us treat it), or even an aircraft of the Zirkus Rosarius or KG200 (though that would have you serving in the wartime Luftwaffe, and your comments suggest you might have mixed feelings about that).

Nathan, who's done a slew of A2A B-17 repaints, already offers an RAF Coastal Command unit and several of the Israeli Air Force (an interesting aside - the Israeli Air Force also flew the Skoda-built Avia S-199 version of the BF109). His site is down temporarily but if you go to the link, his contact information is up and he's open to request.

I hope this helps and I hope you continue to be able to enjoy the B-17 - it's an amazing experience.


Best,
Alan

 

[PRB]

An interesting perspective, Anna. Thanks for sharing that. And don't listen to anybody trying to tell you that you are being "too sensitive." My interest in these planes is from two levels. I am constantly impressed by the amazing machines they are, and the skill, technology, and organization it took to build them. But they wouldn't be nearly as moving a subject without the skill and bravery of the men and women who put thier lives on the line flying them to war. War is a nasty business, but we admire the courage of people who are drawn into it. On both sides!

 

[robert41]

Like others have said, no need to apologize Anna. Being an American I also have those strange feelings when flying a Japanese or Soviet warplane over the US. I usually fly these aircraft in their historic locations. I grew up during the Cold War, and had family members in WW2. The A2A B17 is an excellent aircraft. Very realistic.

 

[dswo]

Thoughtful post, Alan. Thanks for the book recommendations.

 

[Bushpounder]

Anna, I am sorry to hear about your husband. I also agree with what you wrote. Meine Familie kommt aus Speenhagen, and I cannot fly any war machines over Germany. I am a degreed Historian, with much of my major based on 20th century Germany. It was a horrible time for EVERYONE.

Don Moser

 

[Alan_A]

Thanks, David.

Crosby in particular is interesting on a number of counts. Extremely well written (he wound up as head of the writing program at Harvard). He was a navigator, not a pilot, so the perspective is a little different - slightly askew when it comes to The Right Stuff (he calls it Air Force Macho) and other traits. He served the whole war in the 100th Bomb Group (there's quite a description of the Regensburg half of the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission) and became Group Navigator, so there's a command perspective as well. His mentions his take on the Luftwaffe in several places, most memorably in recording his time as group navigator - he talks about the orders that would come down from headquarters, sometimes peppered with false-heroic references to the Krauts or the Huns, and that invariably, he or someone else would edit them out and replace them with "Germans" or "Luftwaffe," out of respect for the quality and professionalism of their opponents. He also describes how they'd talk about this late at night, along with other subjects like the unglamorous fact that they were destroying cities and civilians for a living. In all, very much worth a look.

Character note - he famously saved Bonn, which had been selected as an alternate target on a bad weather day. He was navigator in the lead plane and remembered that Beethoven had lived in Bonn, and he'd been listening to Beethoven records the night before, and he announced over the intercom that they weren't going to bomb any university towns. They were on the bomb run and some of the planes had their bomb bay doors open, but nobody dropped. LeMay wasn't pleased.

Long-winded way of saying - worth a look.


Best,
Alan

 

[maguireted]

To all those who have understood in my remarks, thank you very much , so much. Even if I offended anyone, I offer my excuses.I love one thing in life: peace. May peace be always with you all! Good fly, enjoy, Yours Anna