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The Staff of SOH
The new Dam Busters movie......CGI heavy, politically correct, etc.
- Thread starter DPS
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Navy Chief
Senior Member
Er, I don't get it.
Guess there's a lot more to the story?
NC
Guess there's a lot more to the story?
NC
Guy Gibson's dog was not called that.
In the film, however, the true name of the black Labrador (which was run over the night before the mission and his name used as the code for the destruction of one of the dams) was changed, as the name had become exceptionally offensive to people in the interim (unless apparently used by Spike Lee or Quinten Tarantino... It did start with "N", though.)
You do have to know the story in the first place to get the joke, this is true. I'm afraid that "airbrushing" history to make it more palatable to a modern audience is something I have little time for. History ain't as nice and rosy as some people would like to think it was, at times.
Ian P.
In the film, however, the true name of the black Labrador (which was run over the night before the mission and his name used as the code for the destruction of one of the dams) was changed, as the name had become exceptionally offensive to people in the interim (unless apparently used by Spike Lee or Quinten Tarantino... It did start with "N", though.)
You do have to know the story in the first place to get the joke, this is true. I'm afraid that "airbrushing" history to make it more palatable to a modern audience is something I have little time for. History ain't as nice and rosy as some people would like to think it was, at times.
Ian P.
NSS
Charter Member
Here here.
This is very much a Brit thing.
I think it's meant as a tongue in cheek poke at todays ridiculous Political Correctness Squad. Guy Gibson's dog was called a name that is now almost punishable by death if so much as muttered yet when the phrase originated it was meant something quite sublime. Think about what the PC squad did with Robinsons Jam and their logo, many of our ancient nursery rhymes that are no longer taught in school etc I could go on but... C'mon a Black Cat called Samba ROFL! This was a very, very clever skit.
Sometimes, you know, the Daily Mail isn't that far off the mark.
I think it's meant as a tongue in cheek poke at todays ridiculous Political Correctness Squad. Guy Gibson's dog was called a name that is now almost punishable by death if so much as muttered yet when the phrase originated it was meant something quite sublime. Think about what the PC squad did with Robinsons Jam and their logo, many of our ancient nursery rhymes that are no longer taught in school etc I could go on but... C'mon a Black Cat called Samba ROFL! This was a very, very clever skit.
Sometimes, you know, the Daily Mail isn't that far off the mark.
CodyValkyrie
Charter Member 2016
I found it hilarious.
It happens well here in the U.S. as well. The Confederate Air Force no longer exists, it now is known as the Commemorative Air Force.
It happens well here in the U.S. as well. The Confederate Air Force no longer exists, it now is known as the Commemorative Air Force.
Good point, IanP. The 'N' word seems to be being used in a non-derogatory way in street jargon these days, so perhaps the dog will get called by its proper name.....although the word is it is still going to be 'Nidge'.
If Peter Jackson/Stephen Fry must make their war movie why don't they do a different, less well known story, such as the Operation Jericho raid on Amiens?
If Peter Jackson/Stephen Fry must make their war movie why don't they do a different, less well known story, such as the Operation Jericho raid on Amiens?
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
He even had a golden hamster called Chank. Great animal lover, Gibson was.
Quite agree with the sentiments expressed. THere was a furios row about this a couple of years back in the Newshawks, above. Presumably lost after the crash.
The upshot was that the British and Commonwealth posters were perfectly and unanimously in favour of keeping the dog's original name, and the original codeword, while the majority of Americans were incensed and furious. Of course, we don't share the same history... To begin with, British Forces were not segregated, even then.
He's still there, by the way.
Quite agree with the sentiments expressed. THere was a furios row about this a couple of years back in the Newshawks, above. Presumably lost after the crash.
The upshot was that the British and Commonwealth posters were perfectly and unanimously in favour of keeping the dog's original name, and the original codeword, while the majority of Americans were incensed and furious. Of course, we don't share the same history... To begin with, British Forces were not segregated, even then.
He's still there, by the way.
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
In fact even in the original 1950-something film, in the North American release version, he was called "Trigger" - even then. And that has given rise to a number of totally erroneous supposedly historical accounts in which the modified name has been retained. Just one perhaps insignificant but telling illustration of how history is not quite as absolute as one might like...
Quixoticish
Charter Member
(That's with regards to the incessant, endless debate about the bloody dog, not aimed at your video DPS.
)
I don't really think that debate is really about the dog per se, that's the problem. It's much more about trying to change reality and what actually happened to fit in with a picture of what we'd like history to be rather than what it was.
If we were discussing the fact that Britain nearly wasn't ready for the Battle of Britain because of major industrial action caused by moronic profiteering management and overly powerful unions, would it be the same? What about the fact that much of the UK and US supported what Hitler was doing in Europe, or go back further to the fact that Robin of Locksley was landed gentry who stole from his new politically opposed neighbour to maintain his status, rather than giving to the poor as history has been changed to imply?
I may well be wrong - "Political Correctness" exists because people want it to after all - but I still think that the majority think it more important to know history warts and all, learning from it rather than pretending that it didn't happen.
That poor ex-pooch is a symptom to me, not the discussion in and of itself.
Anyway. I've said my piece on that and will now shut up, while dreading what DPS's next video will be about and how much debate it'll cause! :d
Ian P.
If we were discussing the fact that Britain nearly wasn't ready for the Battle of Britain because of major industrial action caused by moronic profiteering management and overly powerful unions, would it be the same? What about the fact that much of the UK and US supported what Hitler was doing in Europe, or go back further to the fact that Robin of Locksley was landed gentry who stole from his new politically opposed neighbour to maintain his status, rather than giving to the poor as history has been changed to imply?
I may well be wrong - "Political Correctness" exists because people want it to after all - but I still think that the majority think it more important to know history warts and all, learning from it rather than pretending that it didn't happen.
That poor ex-pooch is a symptom to me, not the discussion in and of itself.
Anyway. I've said my piece on that and will now shut up, while dreading what DPS's next video will be about and how much debate it'll cause! :d
Ian P.
Hi,
Yes, prewar "undesirable" history was covered up, such as the fact that Britains Schneider trophy winning S6B was funded by an anti semite, Hitler supporting, government opposing socialite.
And that Walt Disney was not the imaginative genius we all thought of him to be! Many will be shocked to discover he was fired from a newspaper for lack of "Good, creative, ideas" and that he was very infrequently the man we see in his smiling classic picture! He would often go into huge fits of rage and would delegate (read: Force) his staff to come up with "Good, creative, Ideas" for new films.
I too will now shut up on this matter and retreat to my dark corner.
:mixedsmi:
Yes, prewar "undesirable" history was covered up, such as the fact that Britains Schneider trophy winning S6B was funded by an anti semite, Hitler supporting, government opposing socialite.
And that Walt Disney was not the imaginative genius we all thought of him to be! Many will be shocked to discover he was fired from a newspaper for lack of "Good, creative, ideas" and that he was very infrequently the man we see in his smiling classic picture! He would often go into huge fits of rage and would delegate (read: Force) his staff to come up with "Good, creative, Ideas" for new films.I too will now shut up on this matter and retreat to my dark corner.
:mixedsmi:?
If I were making the movie, I would probably change the dog's name or leave him out. I guess I'm in the minority, but here's why:
1. It's distracting. If you leave it in, the media story about the movie will be the dog's name.
2. I'm 40 and American. To me and most people I know, that word stands for an evil system that stains our history. I can talk about it, but I'm reluctant to use that system's own vocabulary -- to see it, as it were, from the inside.
3. Kids are going to be watching the movie (hopefully, right?). However the word may have originated, we don't need a bunch of dogs running around with that as their name.
Someone may have noticed that I'm avoiding the word. I think calling it "the n-word" sounds coy, like it's "potty language." That doesn't work either. But do you remember the inscription on the ring? Elrond didn't want it read aloud in his house; there was something evil about the language of Mordor. Gandalf did it, for a good reason; but it was a terrible saying, and he didn't do it casually. In his letters, Tolkien says that a fan had a goblet made for him with the ring words inscribed on its rim. Tolkien thought that was terrible, and couldn't imagine touching the words with his lips; he used the goblet as an ash tray.
This thread is going to be shut down, for all of the usual (good) reasons. But for any future historians, I would like there to be a record: not everyone on this forum thought the same about this matter.
To those of you who have already commented: there is a real danger in airbrushing the past; we agree about that.
P.S. Thinking about it some more, I can see that the word didn't carry the same freight in 1940s Britain as it does in America today. What its connotations were, in Britain at that time, I don't know. That being said, I would still change the name or leave it out, for the reasons given earlier.
P.P.S. On airbrushing the past: do we have an obligation to tell everything in every story? Most events have a discreditable side, or one that's hard to explain in a two-hour movie that's really about something else. Does that make the two-hour version a whitewash?
P.P.P.S. "Political correctness" usually refers to something that we don't get riled up about personally. But we are all riled up by something; at least I hope so. Being offended is a sign that we're human, that we have a sense of justice or fitness.
TeaSea
SOH-CM-2014
The only point of the dog at all was that it was killed just prior to the mission. That was seen as a bad omen. The name of the dog was the codeword for Chastise success....that was the codeword that was transmitted. No shame should be attached. After all, the idea was to end the war (the real obscenity) and free Western Europe.
I would add that what is considered an epitaph during our time was not at that time, at least not in the UK where it did not carry the same connotation as it would have in the states. Very thin ice when one starts applying current standards of conduct and morays to past events.
As for PC, well, I wouldn't classify being careful how one treats this aspect of the history as PC. If you want real PC, go watch Tora! Tora! Tora! again. James Whitmore plays Admiral "Bull" Halsey, who brought the USS Enterprise back into Pearl on December 8 and as he passed Battleship row is quoted as saying:
"Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell."
That scene was reportedly in the original theater release and one of the only reasons for Whitmore's appearance as Halsey. You cannot find that quote in any version of the movie now.
Operation Chastise suffered a casualty rate in excess of 40%. That is exceptionally high. Perhaps that's the epitaph folks should be left with.
Overall, interesting topic though. I'm always fascinated about how History is treated when viewed through modern eyes.
I would add that what is considered an epitaph during our time was not at that time, at least not in the UK where it did not carry the same connotation as it would have in the states. Very thin ice when one starts applying current standards of conduct and morays to past events.
As for PC, well, I wouldn't classify being careful how one treats this aspect of the history as PC. If you want real PC, go watch Tora! Tora! Tora! again. James Whitmore plays Admiral "Bull" Halsey, who brought the USS Enterprise back into Pearl on December 8 and as he passed Battleship row is quoted as saying:
"Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in hell."
That scene was reportedly in the original theater release and one of the only reasons for Whitmore's appearance as Halsey. You cannot find that quote in any version of the movie now.
Operation Chastise suffered a casualty rate in excess of 40%. That is exceptionally high. Perhaps that's the epitaph folks should be left with.
Overall, interesting topic though. I'm always fascinated about how History is treated when viewed through modern eyes.
TeaSea
SOH-CM-2014
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