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109/190 Gondala Cannons

O

OldCrow

Charter Member
Has anyone solved the 109/190 Gondala Cannons problem with the lesser than should be damage?

Trying to shoot bombers down with what's there is ridiculous in an early 109.
 
That would require the gondolas to be part of model, thus a recompile of the stock models would be required.
Since we do not have access to the source files you won't see that happen.
As far as the Fw190 is concerned I'd say it's a no brainer. There where only a few dozen equipped with gondolas for combat trials which proofed unfavorable since it hampered the maoverability too much.
 
Mathias is right, of course - I've never even seen a photo of a 190 with gondolas - and don't forget the vastly superior armament carried by the 190, compared to the 109, that made them effectively unnecessary in any case.

There is a possible fix, if anyone can be bothered to do it - work out the reduced effectiveness of the gondola weapons and develop a round which would compensate, so that instead of using the standard MG151/20 rounds, they use a weapon-specific enhanced round which will cause the correct degree of damage to the target. The weapon-specific guns already exist in the DR2/DL 109G/K series, so fitting specific rounds to them would be no trouble.

Calculating the degree of "boost" to apply to the gondola guns would be a challenge, and possibly a little too subjective; you would have to deactivate all the fixed guns, and try attacking targets of known strength using the gondola guns. As control, I'd take a Spitfire with cannon only, MGs deactivated, and replace the Hispanos with MG151/20s. Then trial and error until you reach a point where the gondolas are seemingly as effective as the Spit's wing guns....

Good luck, Mr Phelps.


While I remember, there is the GC Bf109f with modelled-on gondolas, too. Admittedly it isn't a G-model (although it could be made to look like one - a project which we finally discarded) but it might do the trick.
 
Mathias said:
That would require the gondolas to be part of model, thus a recompile of the stock models would be required.
Since we do not have access to the source files you won't see that happen.
As far as the Fw190 is concerned I'd say it's a no brainer. There where only a few dozen equipped with gondolas for combat trials which proofed unfavorable since it hampered the maoverability too much.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the bad news friend.:icon_lol:

I thought maybe this had been fixed, but it looks like it's not a feasable fix.

Also, that makes sense about the Fw190's. I pity the poor Bf109's trying to tackle the heavies.
 
ndicki said:
There is a possible fix, if anyone can be bothered to do it - work out the reduced effectiveness of the gondola weapons and develop a round which would compensate, so that instead of using the standard MG151/20 rounds, they use a weapon-specific enhanced round which will cause the correct degree of damage to the target.
Click to expand...

The idea is sound but it doesn't work. I've tried it... at one point I had a Bf 109G with the fuselage cannon disabled and the gondolas firing 75mm shells found from a B-25H. The entire thing flew like a tired iron thanks to all the weight and the firing runs on buildings kicked up more dust than the artillery barrages in the battle of Somme but it still took three runs to knock down a hangar. As a matter of fact it also took three runs with the gondolas firing normal 20mm rounds so I'd say the damage is fixed, completely undependant on the rounds used.
 
Bravo Jon..:salute: :salute: :salute:
Love your Fw 190, a great bird..


Only if it came in Purple with pink pokka dots it would be Perfect..:applause:
 
greycap.raf said:
The idea is sound but it doesn't work. I've tried it... at one point I had a Bf 109G with the fuselage cannon disabled and the gondolas firing 75mm shells found from a B-25H. The entire thing flew like a tired iron thanks to all the weight and the firing runs on buildings kicked up more dust than the artillery barrages in the battle of Somme but it still took three runs to knock down a hangar. As a matter of fact it also took three runs with the gondolas firing normal 20mm rounds so I'd say the damage is fixed, completely undependant on the rounds used.
Click to expand...

Just a dumb though, and may actually be completely off since I havn't touched the inner CFS3 working for ages.
So.....
Wasn't it the default brit Lewis gun that is called by the gondolas for whatever reason, or a similar weak gun? What if you'd increase the damage done by said gun, and in a second step, modify all xdp's that depend on the original weak round to use something else, for instance a renamed copy of the Lewis ?
 
At some point I thought it's the unused "guns.xdp" that is called for and made an experiment on that one. No joy there at least.
 
greycap.raf said:
The idea is sound but it doesn't work. I've tried it... at one point I had a Bf 109G with the fuselage cannon disabled and the gondolas firing 75mm shells found from a B-25H. The entire thing flew like a tired iron thanks to all the weight and the firing runs on buildings kicked up more dust than the artillery barrages in the battle of Somme but it still took three runs to knock down a hangar. As a matter of fact it also took three runs with the gondolas firing normal 20mm rounds so I'd say the damage is fixed, completely undependant on the rounds used.
Click to expand...
I did the seame type of tests with the same results. Maybe the Lewis gun theory is where it's at?
 
Only one way to find out...

There isn't a Lewis gun, as far as I can see - do you mean this? 303calbrowning_gun.xdp
 
Mathias said:
Probably so, Nigel. Just proofs for how long I'm out of the CFS3 business. :-(
Click to expand...

Our loss, to say the least.

Anyway, it isn't the 303 Browning. I replaced the contents with the Molins gun and tried to shoot down the PT-17. Failed. One hit should have torn it to bits, and I hit it about ten times.

The interesting bit is that if you deactivate (null_gun) the fixed guns on the 109g-6, the gondolas shoot backwards. Don't ask me...

Stage two would involve actually doing nothing to the gondola guns, and using the cowl guns instead - boost the cowl guns to 2x MG151/20, making a total of three, and somehow factoring in the MG131s as well - so all your firepower is coming from the fixed guns. Then with the xdp, you'd eliminate all incompatible loadouts - which is realistic enough anyway, as the gondolas tended to stay fixed in place, and were rarely removed by those units which used them.
 
OK, this is what I've done:

Doubled the rate of fire of an MG131 so effectively the left cowl position contains both MG131s, and doubled the rate of fire of an MG151/20 and put it in the right cowl. The Motorkanone remains untouched. Result - you are getting a lot of fairly realistic firepower! The gondolas remain in place but actually serve no purpose beyond the aesthetic.

The other advantage is that AI aircraft WILL have the added firepower; if you look carefully, you'll see that they don't appear to use the gondola guns at all, not that it would make much difference if they did.

The final part of the operation is that I have to rework the sound files....
 
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