Ferry_vO
Retired SOH Administrator
They are related IIRC..
-
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The Staff of SOH
Round 1 of the 2011 F1 Circus is upon us!!
- Thread starter wombat666
- Start date
They are related IIRC..
wombat666
Administrator
Just in!!!
"Saubers disqualified due to rear wing infringement
27 March 2011
2011 Australian Formula 1 Grand Prix: Sunday race results
The Sauber driver pairing of Kamui Kobayashi and Sergio Pérez have been disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix due to a technical infringement with ‘the uppermost rear wing element’ of the C31. Both drivers will now lose their points finishes, with Massa, Buemi and both Force India drivers moving up places.
A section from the FIA Technical Report reads:
'Except for the uppermost rear wing element of car numbers 16 and 17 (see previous technical report), all car weights and the items checked were found to be in conformity with the 2011 FIA Formula One Technical Regulations.' "
And we all know who benefits from this!!!
"Saubers disqualified due to rear wing infringement
27 March 2011
2011 Australian Formula 1 Grand Prix: Sunday race results
The Sauber driver pairing of Kamui Kobayashi and Sergio Pérez have been disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix due to a technical infringement with ‘the uppermost rear wing element’ of the C31. Both drivers will now lose their points finishes, with Massa, Buemi and both Force India drivers moving up places.
A section from the FIA Technical Report reads:
'Except for the uppermost rear wing element of car numbers 16 and 17 (see previous technical report), all car weights and the items checked were found to be in conformity with the 2011 FIA Formula One Technical Regulations.' "
And we all know who benefits from this!!!
Panther_99FS
Retired SOH Administrator
in a way i kinda wish they'd get rid of electric gadets and a gazzlion buttons around the place .... just give em the bare min needed to drive a car and allow free reign on body parts so long as the car didnt go over a certain width or height and they could only spend X amount of money on it.
Also why dont they just check the cars out before the race ... then rule them illeagle or not at the start .. its not like they dont have the access!!!!
Also why dont they just check the cars out before the race ... then rule them illeagle or not at the start .. its not like they dont have the access!!!!
Naismith
Charter Member
in a way i kinda wish they'd get rid of electric gadets and a gazzlion buttons around the place .... just give em the bare min needed to drive a car.....QUOTE]
Like a clutch and gear shift..... that would separate them men from the boys.... I like it
Hey All,
Naismith you got it right!
NASCAR men have cars with clutches, gearshifts, working reverse and even carburetors not like them F1 boys. Not only that NASCAR drivers know how to turn left and right and compete against 42 other cars not a measly 23. Not only that NASCAR tracks feature a huge variety of driving conditions and real opportunities to pass combined with no team orders to pull over and park. Turning left isn't so boring when you have to drive the car in a crowd and contact is a part of the strategy of the race.
Ferry do you still have that link for how much Red Bull NASCAR teams spend and how many cars they use? I need to bookmark that. BTW the Red Bull teams were good today - in my opinion with the drivers Red Bull has right now in Vickers and Kahne they should easily become one of the Tier one NASCAR teams.
-Ed-
Naismith you got it right!
NASCAR men have cars with clutches, gearshifts, working reverse and even carburetors not like them F1 boys. Not only that NASCAR drivers know how to turn left and right and compete against 42 other cars not a measly 23. Not only that NASCAR tracks feature a huge variety of driving conditions and real opportunities to pass combined with no team orders to pull over and park. Turning left isn't so boring when you have to drive the car in a crowd and contact is a part of the strategy of the race.
Ferry do you still have that link for how much Red Bull NASCAR teams spend and how many cars they use? I need to bookmark that. BTW the Red Bull teams were good today - in my opinion with the drivers Red Bull has right now in Vickers and Kahne they should easily become one of the Tier one NASCAR teams.
-Ed-
wombat666
Administrator
One stone age 'carburettor' on a pushrod iron block with an archaic four speed gearbox driving a beam axle???
I suppose you could say 'turning left and right' is true, as most need to 'turn right' after crashing into the infield.
Of course, the only two proper road circuits these 'men' run on are dominated by sporty car 'boys'.
Driving in a series where driving into your opposition is encouraged???
IIRC that goes under the heading of 'Saturday Night Demolition Derby'.
No start and park orders???
What just happened with Jennifer Jo Cobb a couple of weeks ago????
I notice the 'huge variety of driving conditions' doesn't include wet weather, not even damp weather, come to think of it, spit on a NASCAR oval and out comes the pace car.
Ed, as far as I'm concerned 'Formula 1' has been dead and buried for over 25 years at least.
I'm really pissed about the idiotic 'high technology cutting edge' gadgets and other such stupidity.
Mean minded 'regulations' such as those applied in this case are to be expected these days.
I'm with stitz in spirit, a racing car should be a 'car', not an electronic aerodynamic abomination.
But, and there's always one, I believe that anything available on a street legal production car should be allowed in F1............and don't get me started on the so-called 'Aerodynamics'!!
However, the fact remains that Formula One is an 'International' series, like it or not, while NASCAR is just a 'Domestic' series tailored to suit a certain audience in a single country.
Indeed, NASCAR 'administration' is just as bad as F1, so maybe the pot calling the kettle black is not very clever.
Hey All,
Wombat you should look at the history of winners at Watkins Glen and Infineon some time.
Watkins Glen
http://www.nascar.com/kyn/nbtn/cup/data/tracks/wgi_winners.html
Infineon
http://www.nascar.com/kyn/nbtn/cup/data/tracks/spr_winners.html
I do not see where either of these tracks have been dominated by any other than NASCAR "regulars" who know how to handle a gearshift and a clutch.
Bump and run is a legitimate tactic in racing - it beats the heck out of just watching the who can out-brake who in a corner contest - that is boring. In addition in NASCAR you've got highline versus lowline meaning more than one groove racing - you never see that in F1.
Start and Park should be outlawed in NASCAR but it is more honest than pull over so the other driver can win. To this day F1 will not simply totally outlaw team orders. Why?
Racing should be about individual car teams and drivers not about self centered egotistical snob owners who actually think the racing is about them. If they want it to be about them why don't they get into cars and settle it among themselves? When I go to F1 sites I see polls asking which driver is going to win the championship not which owner.
People go to a race to see a driver and his team win not the owner. I couldn't careless whether Childress cars beat Hendrick cars or Gibbs cars or Roush cars - nor do I worry about which brand wins (although I like to see Dodge win) but I do enjoy watching Jimmie Johnson beat Denny Hamlin. On the other hand I do like to see Joey Logano do well and both Hamlin and Logano are Gibbs Toyota drivers.
Do F1 fans go to a race to see if Lewis Hamilton can beat Sebastion Vettel or do they care the most deeply about whether or not a McLaren can beat a Red Bull? What I see is ever increasing interest in the drivers over the brands. This is fundamentally the way it should be as people are most interested in people.
A series based on the idea of technological innovation and run what ya brung might be interesting but that is not the concept behind F1 today or any series that I know of. They are all very strictly rule based - in the interest of evening out the competition and safety. So the idea behind F1 is no different than NASCAR - keep the cars relatively equal and slow them down and keep it safe. This owner based stuff is increasingly becoming nothing but an anachronism.
I would also suggest that NASCAR short tracks, restrictor plate races, road races and then the different layouts of the other tracks provides more variety than you get in F1 tracks and styles of racing.
43 cars on a half mile track at Bristol in the rain? that is just nuts. Unlike F1 in NASCAR cars tend to run in groups and not be strung out all over the track as much - rain would be nothing but havoc under those conditions. That said I think a rain race might be workable under some conditions in NASCAR - be an interesting experiment.
Your last point about international versus domestic as if domestic is in some way inferior is just baffling. There is absolutely no legitimacy to the concept that international is automatically superior to domestic simply by virtue of being international. I'll take good hard domestic driver and his team (driver, cc, and pit crew) against driver and his team racing over team orders to benefit an owner any day.
-Ed-
An edit: I think for this year just because my favorite food is Mexican I'll cheer for Sergio Perez and Sauber Ferrari. I believe the third driver for Sauber is Mexican as well.
Wombat you should look at the history of winners at Watkins Glen and Infineon some time.
Watkins Glen
http://www.nascar.com/kyn/nbtn/cup/data/tracks/wgi_winners.html
Infineon
http://www.nascar.com/kyn/nbtn/cup/data/tracks/spr_winners.html
I do not see where either of these tracks have been dominated by any other than NASCAR "regulars" who know how to handle a gearshift and a clutch.
Bump and run is a legitimate tactic in racing - it beats the heck out of just watching the who can out-brake who in a corner contest - that is boring. In addition in NASCAR you've got highline versus lowline meaning more than one groove racing - you never see that in F1.
Start and Park should be outlawed in NASCAR but it is more honest than pull over so the other driver can win. To this day F1 will not simply totally outlaw team orders. Why?
Racing should be about individual car teams and drivers not about self centered egotistical snob owners who actually think the racing is about them. If they want it to be about them why don't they get into cars and settle it among themselves? When I go to F1 sites I see polls asking which driver is going to win the championship not which owner.
People go to a race to see a driver and his team win not the owner. I couldn't careless whether Childress cars beat Hendrick cars or Gibbs cars or Roush cars - nor do I worry about which brand wins (although I like to see Dodge win) but I do enjoy watching Jimmie Johnson beat Denny Hamlin. On the other hand I do like to see Joey Logano do well and both Hamlin and Logano are Gibbs Toyota drivers.
Do F1 fans go to a race to see if Lewis Hamilton can beat Sebastion Vettel or do they care the most deeply about whether or not a McLaren can beat a Red Bull? What I see is ever increasing interest in the drivers over the brands. This is fundamentally the way it should be as people are most interested in people.
A series based on the idea of technological innovation and run what ya brung might be interesting but that is not the concept behind F1 today or any series that I know of. They are all very strictly rule based - in the interest of evening out the competition and safety. So the idea behind F1 is no different than NASCAR - keep the cars relatively equal and slow them down and keep it safe. This owner based stuff is increasingly becoming nothing but an anachronism.
I would also suggest that NASCAR short tracks, restrictor plate races, road races and then the different layouts of the other tracks provides more variety than you get in F1 tracks and styles of racing.
43 cars on a half mile track at Bristol in the rain? that is just nuts. Unlike F1 in NASCAR cars tend to run in groups and not be strung out all over the track as much - rain would be nothing but havoc under those conditions. That said I think a rain race might be workable under some conditions in NASCAR - be an interesting experiment.
Your last point about international versus domestic as if domestic is in some way inferior is just baffling. There is absolutely no legitimacy to the concept that international is automatically superior to domestic simply by virtue of being international. I'll take good hard domestic driver and his team (driver, cc, and pit crew) against driver and his team racing over team orders to benefit an owner any day.
-Ed-
An edit: I think for this year just because my favorite food is Mexican I'll cheer for Sergio Perez and Sauber Ferrari. I believe the third driver for Sauber is Mexican as well.
I personaly dont mind it .. it can get pretty hairy and if you overdo it in an f1 car and go either in the gravel or into the wall then its pretty much race over, when cars are always doing it it just becomes normanl
Because its unforceable really .. as last year kinda prooves, allthough it is obvious!
I've never heard the team owners say its all about them .. infact most of the time its centred on the drivers, the team and car is 2nd. The drivers make the car .. which nick heidfeld showed to perfection ...
Tottally disagree with that .... its all oval apart from road american, watkins glen and circuit gilles villeneuve. Yes i know they have low and high lines, but their still ovals with no variation. Also .... wasnt watkins glen and f1 circuit way back
wombat666
Administrator
Ed,
Most of the winners on the road circuits are either 'open wheel' drivers like Tony Stewart and Robbie Gordon, or drivers who are/were extremely talented all rounders, Jeff Gordon, Tim Richmond, Mark Martin for example, along with a few who I always regarded as being wasted (more or less) in restricting their outings to ovals.
The only reason I'm tolerating what passes as F1 today is because I support Mark Webber, having known him from way back when he started in FF1600.
I'll admit to thoroughly liking Jenson Button and 'The Fonz' (Alonso) simply because they race and use their brains.
As for following 'Teams', like I said, that died about 20 years ago.
I use EXACTLY the same rationale when spotty youths rave on about our V8 Supercar Series being the 'Best Racing in the World' .................. it is 'entertaining' but it is an Australian Series.
Much to my disgust, these cars are heading down the chute, tube frames are being worked into the regulations a couple of years down the track, along with more regulations for supposed parity.
I've said it before, there is NO such thing as 'Parity' in car racing.
And you miss my point regarding F1 regulations, I can walk into a showroom today and buy an all wheel drive, turbo charged, automatic road car fitted with ABS, and in most engine configurations, inline 4, inline 6, flat 4, flat 6, V4, V6, V8 and v12, as well as a choice of diesel or petrol in whatever capacity I desire.
So F1, with a 'spec' engine design that includes such idiotic rules like crankshafts being the same length, V8 only configuration with the angle of the 'V' being fixed, no ABS, no T/C and an arbitrary number of engines and transmissions allowed over a year is hardly cutting edge technology.
From the ridiculous aerodynamics and the constant radio 'coaching', plus the continued use of carbon/carbon braking systems, the old 'Racing Improves the Breed' philosophy means nothing.
I'm not saying 'Production Based' components or even 'Run What Yer Brung' is the way to go, my view is that Formula One should be going back to the concept of developing and innovating really practical technical advances, while not banning equipment (such as ABS) that is commonly available.
It is either the real cutting edge of Automotive Technology or it takes the path of 'Entertainment' and becomes as dumb as IRL ...... the motorsport equivalent of a bag of hammers.
I KNOW ovals are different, being a devoted CART fan up to the advent of IRL I understand the difference between Nazareth, Phoenix, Fontana and Michigan, but CART had the sense to run ovals, street circuits and 'proper' road racing circuits.
Regarding those who control F1 today, most are the sort of people who I wouldn't urinate on if they were on fire.
Equally, the NASCAR and V8 Supercars hierarchy are much the same, nothing to do with 'Motorsport', everything is about money.
No 'Team Orders' in NASCAR eh??
Ed, as you insist on repeating, didn't Mark Martin 'blow his engine' to allow his team mate to 'win' the title one year???
Must be time for my medication!!!
:ernae:
Most of the winners on the road circuits are either 'open wheel' drivers like Tony Stewart and Robbie Gordon, or drivers who are/were extremely talented all rounders, Jeff Gordon, Tim Richmond, Mark Martin for example, along with a few who I always regarded as being wasted (more or less) in restricting their outings to ovals.
The only reason I'm tolerating what passes as F1 today is because I support Mark Webber, having known him from way back when he started in FF1600.
I'll admit to thoroughly liking Jenson Button and 'The Fonz' (Alonso) simply because they race and use their brains.
As for following 'Teams', like I said, that died about 20 years ago.
I use EXACTLY the same rationale when spotty youths rave on about our V8 Supercar Series being the 'Best Racing in the World' .................. it is 'entertaining' but it is an Australian Series.
Much to my disgust, these cars are heading down the chute, tube frames are being worked into the regulations a couple of years down the track, along with more regulations for supposed parity.
I've said it before, there is NO such thing as 'Parity' in car racing.
And you miss my point regarding F1 regulations, I can walk into a showroom today and buy an all wheel drive, turbo charged, automatic road car fitted with ABS, and in most engine configurations, inline 4, inline 6, flat 4, flat 6, V4, V6, V8 and v12, as well as a choice of diesel or petrol in whatever capacity I desire.
So F1, with a 'spec' engine design that includes such idiotic rules like crankshafts being the same length, V8 only configuration with the angle of the 'V' being fixed, no ABS, no T/C and an arbitrary number of engines and transmissions allowed over a year is hardly cutting edge technology.
From the ridiculous aerodynamics and the constant radio 'coaching', plus the continued use of carbon/carbon braking systems, the old 'Racing Improves the Breed' philosophy means nothing.
I'm not saying 'Production Based' components or even 'Run What Yer Brung' is the way to go, my view is that Formula One should be going back to the concept of developing and innovating really practical technical advances, while not banning equipment (such as ABS) that is commonly available.
It is either the real cutting edge of Automotive Technology or it takes the path of 'Entertainment' and becomes as dumb as IRL ...... the motorsport equivalent of a bag of hammers.
I KNOW ovals are different, being a devoted CART fan up to the advent of IRL I understand the difference between Nazareth, Phoenix, Fontana and Michigan, but CART had the sense to run ovals, street circuits and 'proper' road racing circuits.
Regarding those who control F1 today, most are the sort of people who I wouldn't urinate on if they were on fire.
Equally, the NASCAR and V8 Supercars hierarchy are much the same, nothing to do with 'Motorsport', everything is about money.
No 'Team Orders' in NASCAR eh??
Ed, as you insist on repeating, didn't Mark Martin 'blow his engine' to allow his team mate to 'win' the title one year???
Must be time for my medication!!!
:ernae:
Ferry_vO
Retired SOH Administrator
The main problem is the money needed to develop such cars; give Adrian Newey an open set of rules and he'll create something 20 seconds a lap faster than the current cars, but who's going to pay for it? Costs in F1 were rising out of control, which is why we lost BMW, Toyota, Honda and a lot of smaller teams the last years. They are trying to find a balance between cost and show at the moment, starting with standard components and limiting freedom of the designers/engineers.
Ask the Italians who they favor: Ferrari or the Ferrari drivers. No driver has ever been bigger than the team to the 'Tifosi'.
??
Ed, the 'F1 vs. Nascar' discussion is pointless; it's pretty much the same as 'Boeing vs. Airbus' or others like that. You like one or the other and it's impossible to change the other guy's mind.
wombat666
Administrator
'Bench Racing' at its best!
At least we can agree to disagree without being obnoxious.
Shame we can't be sitting around face to face and having our discussions over a nice cold beer!!
:ernae:
Hey All,
OK a cold beer it is but I believe we can agree that it'll have to be Canadian beer cause that is the best!
In all honesty F1 could be good racing if more than about 6 cars (Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari) were competitive there was some passing and team orders were flat out outlawed. The Canadian race last year was actually pretty good.
-Ed-
PS I can never forget Schumacher and Barrichello in 2001 AND 2002 Austria. How F1 and Ferrari could EVER claim any honor after those two displays is absolutely, utterly and totally beyond me. Schumacher's 5 Championships in a row are an absolute sham - at least he did hand Barrichello the 1st place trophy on the podium in 2002 - cost Ferrari $1,000,000 a pittance to them - it should have been $1,000,000,000 and make it hurt. I knew right then and there everything F1 stood for. Jimmie Johnson got his honest.
OK a cold beer it is but I believe we can agree that it'll have to be Canadian beer cause that is the best!
In all honesty F1 could be good racing if more than about 6 cars (Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari) were competitive there was some passing and team orders were flat out outlawed. The Canadian race last year was actually pretty good.
-Ed-
PS I can never forget Schumacher and Barrichello in 2001 AND 2002 Austria. How F1 and Ferrari could EVER claim any honor after those two displays is absolutely, utterly and totally beyond me. Schumacher's 5 Championships in a row are an absolute sham - at least he did hand Barrichello the 1st place trophy on the podium in 2002 - cost Ferrari $1,000,000 a pittance to them - it should have been $1,000,000,000 and make it hurt. I knew right then and there everything F1 stood for. Jimmie Johnson got his honest.
Ferry_vO
Retired SOH Administrator
I would love to see a NASCAR in the wet on an oval! Start spinning at Talledega and you won't stop until you slide into either the Pacific or Atlantic ocean..
