A very sad and at the same time enraging annoucement to make..

[Lewis-A2A]

Gees, this is more grippin than Eastenders !

Eastenders is gripping?

 

[guzler]

I don't watch it really Lewis, but thought I'd lighten the mood. SOH is more on edge than work at the moment !

Poor administrators must be getting the hours in !!!!!

 

[Clarke123]

I don't watch it really Lewis, but thought I'd lighten the mood. SOH is more on edge than work at the moment !

Poor administrators must be getting the hours in !!!!!

Ha ha ha, bloody hell it must be bad if Eastenders is light hearted by comparison. This week on SOH One, who banned Phil Mitchell? :d

 

[jdhaenens]

My goodness. You don't mean that someone is using your intellectual property without your permission or payment in a manner clearly inconsistent with the copyright notice do you? The bastiges.



Jim

 

[Shylock]

I agree that outing them won't really get anywhere but maybe hurt any future cases in which could lead to a court of law. But I say let the hunt begin!!!!

 

[Bone]

The bastiges.



Jim

I thought Omar said "farging bastiges"...just sayin'.

 

[Meshman]

I agree that outing them won't really get anywhere but maybe hurt any future cases in which could lead to a court of law. But I say let the hunt begin!!!!

I'll supply the $.25s in case anyone wants to start calling attorneys who might want to handle a copyright violation. Which is a civil violation, not a criminal violation. Call the cops? Good luck, as I'm sure they'll get back to you when the really important stuff all disappears. That attorney who decided to handle the civil case? He wants his retainer up front and there's an hourly rate to be charged. If for some reason it got before a judge or a jury, what's the prospects of getting more than the $30 the software costs?

My point being, when we are the small fish in the ocean of life doing something like identifying a thief, er sorry, copyright violator is one of the few things we can do. Less than two weeks after my first releases they had been pirated. Once I moved the products solely onto my own site I saw no further incidents. Why? Maybe because I had a warning up that said any sharing would cause the purchaser's name to be published on the Hall of Shame on my site. My past customers got "individualized files", just as any future customers will. Good people needn't worry at all. For the thieves? I will name the person who first shared the file.

 

[wantok]

I thought Omar said "farging bastiges"...just sayin'.

It must be tucking fypo again... sorry can't help it.. But seriously, ban the bugger for life. The topic gets to the nerves everytime it comes up and yet we're helpless. Sigh!.. double sigh..!

 

[Wingnut172N]

Sorry mate but it really does not matter at all whether or not Prowler served or not. The fact is that simply by committing theft the person or person(s) he is addressing would have forfeited any right for respect of their service as they clearly show none of the character that a true service member does have.
To grant these fellons the "protection" of being a service member indeed would diminish the respect the 99.99% of honest and proud deserve.

To try and soften your comments by speculating on his service record really does nothing at all. He addressed a pair of particular scumbags...not all service members.

A bad apple is a bad apple and deserves to be thrown out....not protection by the tree it may have once belonged to.

Stefan

Stefan,

While in principle I agree with you, I believe that circumstances must be taken into account at all times, and the 'theft' of a $30 software item amounts to horrible judgement, but I do not believe that it can therefore be used to call the individual a 'disgrace to the uniform'.

After an individual has served downrange, fighting insurgents, IED's, humping 70 pounds of gear, away from their family for months, etc...you feel that the theft of a computer game makes them 'scum of the earth' and a 'disgrace to the uniform'?

Bulls**t. It makes them an individual who made a bad choice, and an admittedly easy one to make with downloadable items such as music, software, etc. Not justifying what they did, but if someone who had never served threw out a phrase like Ron did without having "walked a mile" so to speak, I've got serious doubts about that individual's values.

 

[deathfromafar]

I'll supply the $.25s in case anyone wants to start calling attorneys who might want to handle a copyright violation. Which is a civil violation, not a criminal violation. Call the cops? Good luck, as I'm sure they'll get back to you when the really important stuff all disappears. That attorney who decided to handle the civil case? He wants his retainer up front and there's an hourly rate to be charged. If for some reason it got before a judge or a jury, what's the prospects of getting more than the $30 the software costs?

My point being, when we are the small fish in the ocean of life doing something like identifying a thief, er sorry, copyright violator is one of the few things we can do. Less than two weeks after my first releases they had been pirated. Once I moved the products solely onto my own site I saw no further incidents. Why? Maybe because I had a warning up that said any sharing would cause the purchaser's name to be published on the Hall of Shame on my site. My past customers got "individualized files", just as any future customers will. Good people needn't worry at all. For the thieves? I will name the person who first shared the file.

Actually depending on the elements of a particular incident(s), such uploading and downloading is in fact a Federal Criminal Offense in many countries and Prosecutors in the US for example have the power and ability to file a Civil Lawsuit on behalf of the rights holders/victims to recover loses. There are a number of ways to go about this but in Ron's case and others who are in different countries/jurisdictions, I would suggest contacting Interpol's Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Program. They actively pursue criminal cases through various treaties and agreements with different governing bodies and agencies concerned with IP Laws and piracy.

As Michael Davies and I think others have pointed out correctly, the focus should in fact be on those 5% or less who are deliberately and repeatedly committing these acts as they are the root of the real damage. That is feasible and there are resources to help deal with it. Even the IRS is now going after IP Rights violators for lost Federal Revenue in business taxes here.

http://www.interpol.int/Public/FinancialCrime/IntellectualProperty/Default.asp

http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2011/PR008Video.html

 

[N2056]

At this point the discussion can either stay on the real topic of Piracy, or it can be done. The next reply questioning someones values kills it.

 

[FSDSMAN]

Just quickly browsed through this thread so excuse me if I repeat some comments.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
As a developer I must first point out that I do not get a penny for the work that I do until it is on sale - and then only a percentage. If it don't sell then months and months of work is un-rewarded - the gamble I take.<o></o>
It is a miss-conception that developers of pay ware are rewarded well for their work. Most projects on sale do not break even or ever could when the time factor is taken into account - it is just not possible. <o></o>
Piracy is killing development of new projects.<o></o>
Simply sharing a "$30" piece of software does not end there. Once it is made available the seeds soon multiply and then you have 3000 or more illegal downloads. So quite simply the original perpetrator of the "theft" has potentionally denied far more than a measly $30 to the developer. It is still a crime the same as myself walking into your home and removing your television or expensive car because I just wanted one. If I was caught I would expect to be prosecuted and that would mean a court appearance, sentence and a criminal record and PUBLICALLY SHAMED regardless of any previous military record or public acclaim.<o></o>
PIRACY IS A CRIME and it is strangling the hobby.<o></o>

 

[AndyG43]

This is a fine balancing act, which I understand needs to be handled carefully by the SOH Admin. I really feel for Prowler and the guys at Razbam (on the plus side gents, it's prompted me to take a look at the A-7's, and I may well be making a purchase shortly) & piracy in our hobby stinks; and in this instance it looks like there is plenty of evidence to support the complaint - but .......

I'm not the only person here who will no longer buy from FSD, due to their overly zealous security policy followed at one time, and their overwillingness to accuse all & sundry of pirating their product. And I'm sure we are all well aware of another recent accusation levelled on these forums, relating to alleged theft and reverse engineering of a payware aircraft. I know where I stand on that particular issue, having reviewed all the evidence currently in the public domain (although Admin may have more that we are currently not party to) and look forward to the matter being resolved.

My point here is, while I appreciate the frustration of developers and retailers, maybe these public accusations and finger pointings are not the best way to tackle things? No issues with Prowler & Razbam, who have the perps bang to rights; but I now have another seller to add to my own blacklist, in case they decide to start pointing fingers again!!

 

[TARPSBird]

I think the best course of action is for the SOH admin staff to determine what happens to the people involved in the piracy incident, and not for everybody to get fired up to the lynch mob level. I do hope their identities are not revealed, as previously mentioned that could have an adverse effect on whatever course of action Razbam decides to take. I'm glad the majority of folks appreciate the efforts of our designers, both payware and freeware, and realize that piracy is a dishonest act. I just don't want to see the incident have a destructive effect here at SOH.

 

[Felixthreeone]

I agree with one of Andy's comments regarding the A-7 itself; I hadn't really been too interested in the A-7, but now i might take a closer look and purchase one of the packs just to help the cause. Besides, I like the A-7, and was a big fan of them when i was a kid; I simply prefer to have modern stuff in my sim. Oh, uhh....except the Tomcat. Everyone should have a Tomcat. :salute:

 

[Chuck_Jodry-VJPL]

This subject Defines a Rats Nest, there are no winners , only differing forms of loss and calling out the culprits in public punish the innocent more than the guilty .<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
<o></o>
Addon Publishers who run their own E Commerce setup know precisely what ip address is logged on and downloading a given file and how many times it has been activated and when, further the digital trail is logged permanently in the database, along with the original purchase information and key.<o></o>
<o></o>
The following scenario has / is played out innumerable times, Client purchases product installs it , gets buddy on msn and provides the download link log in info and the key , buddy downloads ( ip recorded & time) , and so on and so on , all during the first 48 hours.<o></o>
<o></o>
So the publisher sees the download counter hit the limit fast , most set it at 10 and it’s not uncommon to get emails from the original purchaser or friends claiming they are unable to download their product for a reinstall to a new machine.<o></o>
<o></o>
So here we sit on a pile of records , plain as day the culprits are visible, when confronted they invariably claim complete innocence and go on a vendetta in forums becoming ardent claimants that that DRM Over Zealousness by a company or another prevents their considering them ever again.<o></o>
<o></o>
Seen this over and over again , Forum Staff and Members everywhere alike are not immune to this kind of piracy, it is rampant and if the Developer waves the red flag in the end he loses , that has been a recurrent truism , replayed when the debate about piracy rages again ... i won’t buy from " XXX " because they are tough on pirates... from the point of view of the one holding the records it ends up sounding like lip service<o></o>
Back to the beginning , calling this a rats nest , It’s been my policy to watch the counter rise and do nothing more than smile knowing there is a download limit , and with good reason if payware producers were to furnish all evidence of each incidence they have on record to the forum staff how long would they last in business , it would become a witch hunt and most unpleasant for all concerned.<o></o>

 

[AndyG43]

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
........DRM Over Zealousness by a company or another prevents their considering them ever again.

There is an implication in that statement that I take exception to, when I have made that exact comment above. I'll politely assume I've misinterpreted your words.

 

[Z-IanMCD]

Actually depending on the elements of a particular incident(s), such uploading and downloading is in fact a Federal Criminal Offense in many countries and Prosecutors in the US for example have the power and ability to file a Civil Lawsuit on behalf of the rights holders/victims to recover loses. There are a number of ways to go about this but in Ron's case and others who are in different countries/jurisdictions, I would suggest contacting Interpol's Intellectual Property Rights (IPR) Program. They actively pursue criminal cases through various treaties and agreements with different governing bodies and agencies concerned with IP Laws and piracy.

As Michael Davies and I think others have pointed out correctly, the focus should in fact be on those 5% or less who are deliberately and repeatedly committing these acts as they are the root of the real damage. That is feasible and there are resources to help deal with it. Even the IRS is now going after IP Rights violators for lost Federal Revenue in business taxes here.

http://www.interpol.int/Public/FinancialCrime/IntellectualProperty/Default.asp

http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2011/PR008Video.html

I don't really know what the story is in the US, but there isn't a judge in Europe who will do anything about pirating an FS addon. For the judges, there are more important forms of piracy to be dealt with.

And like ZEUS said, the pirates are NOT lost market share or anything. They will never buy an addon. Why should they? They can just download it a couple of days after the official release.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning this, just stating facts.

 

[falcon409]

I don't really know what the story is in the US, but there isn't a judge in Europe who will do anything about pirating an FS addon. For the judges, there are more important forms of piracy to be dealt with. . . . . . . . .Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning this, just stating facts.

I would have to agree. I know the initial impulse is to get them into the legal system and extract some degree of justice be it in the form of a monetary return for damages done or some other punishment agreed upon by the courts. However, at best, this might make it into small claims court and even then the amount of time spent on research, writing the papers showing justification for bringing the suit, attorneys fees, etc, etc and in the end you'd probably walk away from the experience wondering why the offender only got what amounts to a slap on the wrist from the court and an admonishment to "Cease and Desist". It might be a small victory to be sure and still no guarantee that the offenders wouldn't turn up somewhere else with new monikers and a better, more refined scam.

As you said Ian, not condoning what has happened, but short of bringing a Class Action Suit in which all developers joined in against a major piracy ring, I'm afraid that other than a public berating in the major Flight Sim Forums, little could be accomplished to actually shut this sort of thing down effectively.:salute:

 

[Z-IanMCD]

As you said Ian, not condoning what has happened, but short of bringing a Class Action Suit in which all developers joined in against a major piracy ring, I'm afraid that other than a public berating in the major Flight Sim Forums, little could be accomplished to actually shut this sort of thing down effectively.:salute:

A major piracy ring? In FS addons? I was under the impression that, with the demise of ***** of Silence, that one was closed. There are a couple of smaller operations about, but they come and go if I'm not mistaking.

Moreover, shouldn't we at least here at SOH be focussing on supporting the devs who make the stuff our dreams are made of, instead of fulminating against something we can do nothing about?