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  • Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.

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A very sad and at the same time enraging annoucement to make..

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I was thinking about the topic this morning and I remembered something....

A few years back, a developer offered a product for sale. His sales weren't great, but they were steady and rather predictable. About a week later the file became available on a popular pirating site. The purchases on his website folded pretty drastically.

I suspect that while a certain percentage of people may indeed never purchase anything, I think there are another large percentage who may have the money. I think there is a huge misconception that the people who pirate software are only young and have no money; I think there is a large group of people who are exactly opposite that.

We live in a day and time where everyone wants everything immediately. You want information on the internet, it is at your fingertips within seconds. You want food, you order it and it comes to your house quickly. You want to watch a movie, you no longer have to get in the car and rent it, you order it from your cable provider and it plays instantly. I think the same is pertinent here.

People when given the chance to spend their $30 on something rather see an opportunity to get it for free, and it is all too easy of a mental jump (and a physical one too seeing how easy it is) to simply get the product by pirating anonymously, saving themselves their money. Let us look at it from their perspective:
1) They want product X.
2) They have the money, but they find product X for free at their favorite pirate site.
3) They keep their money, get the product for free.
4) They satisfy their need for the product.

This would and will account for the loss in sales once a piece of software becomes widely available on pirating websites. This also explains the idea that if a large percentage of pirates scour these websites but are unable to find the products they want, they simply purchase them.... Why you may ask? Because they want to satisfy their curiosity and their need for the product.

How many of you have purchased products that you have only flown a few times and did little research on before purchasing? These pirates are satisfying the same needs through less than morally correct terms.

I also suspect that for some pirates, it is easier and more convenient to go to a single pirating source and download the product than it is to actually PURCHASE the product from an online store. A few clicks and you are on your way to getting what you want, versus having to enter a whole ton of information, get your credit card and/or paypal account, create any necessary accounts for the website, etc etc etc.

That's my spin on it anyways, whether I like it or not. I think it is obvious I do not condone such actions, but the psychology of the subject is of great interest to me.
 
I beg to differ Cody! IMHO, most pirates will never buy anyway. I will admit however that some pirate groups will indeed purchase stuff that is difficult to find, but most work with backdoors on the developer sites so they can grab the stuff free of charge.

Also, given the fact that most installers can be easily cracked (except the Flight1 wrappers) or the stuff therein extracted, it's not so terribly difficult to get the stuff you want if you're a bit computer and network savvy.

A pitty about the dev you mentioned but I really do think he is/was an exception to the rule.
 
IanMCD said:
A pitty about the dev you mentioned but I really do think he is/was an exception to the rule.
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While I agree mostly with what you said, I think it is more common than you realize. I see a trend of this with many developers I work with.

From a psychological standpoint, most people who pirate KNOW what they are doing is less than "standup." As such I think most take extra precautions (although many, likely due to mental inability do not). Much as someone who walked into a store might wear loose clothes or think hard about how to accomplish the task of physically stealing, most pirating is done through anonymous sources such as torrenting sites, places were developers often have a hard time tracking who is doing this. Just the same as how many people will not speak to a developer or post on a forum, and those that do indeed contribute to said forums are a smaller percentage of the entire customer base.

This is the theory I am running with anyways. It sounds very human for people to do as I predict, and it gives the whole scenario sense.

In some cases, people who are not as computer savvy may indeed do as others have said, use login names and allow their friends to get the files. I think the majority of pirating is done via torrents, pirating websites (news boards, etc) and straight file sharing using various online communication tools.

In the sites I was involved in shutting down, while I saw a large percentage of young adults who likely would not have paid for such things, I also saw an almost equal percentage of people over the age of 18. This is based on the records I COULD find.
 
You're forgetting one thing Cody: security on most dev sites or even of the publishers is puny to say at the least. Flight1 and Virtavia are an exception to the rule, but the old Alphasim site was a joke security wise.

Before you ask, no I am no pirate, but I work in IT, more precisely for the federal govt of the country that I live in. And so I like to check the sites that I visit, for my own protection.

A lot of devs with their own sites, a lot of forums and even the publishers apparently don't see the need to invest in security. In these days, that is folly indeed!!
 
I concur, but it is easy enough to log an IP. Furthermore, I suspect a large majority of pirates are not computer savvy enough to back door a website. Much like drugs, there are only a few who distribute, while the majority are buying. You see this when you see large numbers of leeching versus seeding on torrent sites.

I don't see security for addon software as a real way of locking the software and stopping piracy. I see it more so as a way to keep the honest man honest. The level of sophistication to completely lock down software is mind boggling. The best methods are those that "call home." VRS and Flight1 have some of the best anti-piracy software I have seen in this industry... but it comes at the cost of development.

There are only a few examples of software which hasn't been successfully cracked... and not because it couldn't be cracked, but because nobody is talented enough or has enough time to tackle it. On a larger scale, almost inevitably the large industry games always get cracked. Our industry, thankfully does not attract THAT much attention to pirates.

For the record I do keep an eye on the pirate sites. I want to know exactly what these people are up to, and keep tabs for friends of mine in the industry. There is one developer in particular who I know very closely as a friend who has taken on these pirates directly. If the product is not registered properly it will "pretend" to work, then will cause random crashes. Insidious? Perhaps. The comments on the pirate forums are priceless however. He is not the only developer doing it.

Some developers take on the concept that it is money and time wasted, which is not necessarily an incorrect thought either, especially if you don't have the time to develop such software and/or purchase it. They accept the loss and try to make up for it by providing a large community and excellent addons which they develop to be worthy of purchase.

Naturally, no easy answer.

I suspect we could talk in circles on this.
 
Logging Ip's?? ROFLMFAO!!! There are plenty techniques about to have your ip address changed several times per second AND keep a steady connection mate!!

If the site owners would do something about the security of their sites, so that the stuff thereon isn't up for grabs, that would be a BIG help against piracy!!

And even the stuff that "calls home" can be spoofed. The VRS Superbug has allready been cracked. And crackers like Komu or Wildmans have very very impressive skills mate.

Just ask Matthijs Kok or the people from Virtuali, they will tell ya! ;)
 
IanMCD said:
Logging Ip's?? ROFLMFAO!!! There are plenty techniques about to have your ip address changed several times per second AND keep a steady connection mate!!
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I know. I am not addressing that, and again I suspect the majority of the pirating is NOT done by people who know well enough how to do such things. It is rather easy to tell however from an online shop if multiple IPs are downloading a product, thus allowing most companies to put a stop to it. Some as you said however are severely lacking in security. I have seen little evidence however that the majority of pirating is being done in this way.

If the site owners would do something about the security of their sites, so that the stuff thereon isn't up for grabs, that would be a BIG help against piracy!!
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True, but again I go back to my statements that the majority of pirating is not being done in this fashion.

And even the stuff that "calls home" can be spoofed. The VRS Superbug has allready been cracked. And crackers like Komu or Wildmans have very very impressive skills mate.
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I know Jon Blum and his family and we are close friends, and I know well enough about Komu and some of the others.... and no this software has not been REALLY cracked. I won't go into details, but I am intimately familiar with this case, the people involved and the files which are available.

Just ask Matthijs Kok or the people from Virtuali, they will tell ya! ;)
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I have been working for Aerosoft for years mate. I'm no spring chicken. :)

For years Aerosoft software could be cracked my replacing a specific file. This has since mostly been addressed. As I said however I believe it is more about keeping the honest man honest. There is a social community involved in pirating however, and many by their weird set of virtues refuse to purchase software. I believe most anti-piracy software is not aimed at these people, those who spend all the time doing the hacking. It is more aimed at the crowd who doesn't have the patience and/or technical skill.
 
Locking a cracking software has a cost both monetary and in time.

There are highly skilled people out there that can crack software, but is it worth the effort for them?
 
ZEUS67 said:
Locking a cracking software has a cost both monetary and in time.

There are highly skilled people out there that can crack software, but is it worth the effort for them?
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No, from my perspective it is not... to some pirates however, the few that do the high end hacking/cracking, it is the challenge I believe. They gain fame and notoriety among other pirates for doing such acts. Sadly, they use their skills for negative use, rather than something positive.

I think the same can be said about those who end up NOT pirating. While many will go through the paces to properly "crack" software, I think there are many as well who will simply not download it and/or purchase it because of the effort which may be beyond their technical skill, they don't want to fuss with it or it is too time consuming. Again, I go back to my instant gratification statements.
 
of course, due to the very nature of piracy, most of us here will never now their SOP's fully. But I am convinced that there are a lot of IT savvy people in that community.

and you're referring to the old wildmans crack for AS products. Indeed, AS came out with a sollution, which in the meantime has apparently been bypassed as well. But I'm not totally sure of this, as I haven't seen the proof (and I don't waste my time looking around for it)

But given the fact that our hobby is based on software, everything can be cracked or spoofed mate. It's sad, but it is the truth!

And now, I'm going to bed because I have an early day tomorrow!

G'night people!
 
Originally Posted by Chuck_Jodry-VJPL
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
........DRM Over Zealousness by a company or another prevents their considering them ever again.

AndyG43 said:
There is an implication in that statement that I take exception to, when I have made that exact comment above. I'll politely assume I've misinterpreted your words.
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I hope Chuck that the implication in your post that Andy may be involved in piracy because he, like many, find DRM to be too irritating to bother with, was purely coincidental? Certainly you seem to have failed to notice that Andy was rather aggrieved by that part of your post.

Roger.
 
All commentary was in general terms relating my impressions and solution to the issue, i have removed all such devices from any software i am involved with and have a policy of not forcing the issue as invariably the developer looks like the bad guy.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Andy was not used as a specific reference and I apologise if Andy feels he is being singled out .<o:p></o:p>
 
lack of skill

for all the skills, of the intellectual property thieves....the set of skills they sadly,will never
achieve.....are the skills that make an intelligent,honest,sensible,sentient,wise.human being.

probably why they live under rocks, with theyre own kind....

render unto caeser.that which is his...is that from shakespear?..cant remember...jim
 
You cannot ever win over Piracy.

It is a pitfall that many developers, small medium and massive have all fallen into.

Every wrapper, DRM, security measure, what have you is crackable. Everything. Nothing will ever be 100% secure. The closest you can get is a dedicated USB hardware dongle, but even that can be emulated.
Trying to combat pirates and making it worse for your customers in the process yields less customers in the end (See Ubisoft DRM fiasco)
A product will always be pirated.

Combat it by minimal use of DRM, proper support and customer interaction/benefits.
 
GrinningJester said:
You cannot ever win over Piracy.

Combat it by minimal use of DRM, proper support and customer interaction/benefits.
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I agree with the first point, but not the second.

It is my opinion that the mindset of the pirate doesn't get to the extent of formulating the thought "They have excellent support and great customer interaction, so I WON'T steal this piece of software." Just can't grasp that thought process.

For the legitimate customer? Make sure you appreciate them spending their money for your product. And make them want to come back for more.

It would be great if the thief didn't decide to hit up the support forum for answers to their questions, but I guess that's asking for a little too much from them?
 
Meshman said:
I agree with the first point, but not the second.

It is my opinion that the mindset of the pirate doesn't get to the extent of formulating the thought "They have excellent support and great customer interaction, so I WON'T steal this piece of software." Just can't grasp that thought process.

For the legitimate customer? Make sure you appreciate them spending their money for your product. And make them want to come back for more.

It would be great if the thief didn't decide to hit up the support forum for answers to their questions, but I guess that's asking for a little too much from them?
Click to expand...

They do get to that point.
At least when it comes to full games and such, many pirates do opt to purchase a game and even merchandise to support the development team.

A few others also tend to test the product by pirating, and then purchasing.


My ACTUAL point though, was that by making obtrusive DRM for your actual paying customers, can really hurt things more than you gain by them, something which has been shown time and time again.

Nothing which the majority of FS developers have done though, has always been pretty decent DRM.
 
Chuck_Jodry-VJPL said:
All commentary was in general terms relating my impressions and solution to the issue, i have removed all such devices from any software i am involved with and have a policy of not forcing the issue as invariably the developer looks like the bad guy.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Andy was not used as a specific reference and I apologise if Andy feels he is being singled out .<o:p></o:p>
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Thank you Chuck, really appreciate this.

And thanks to Admin in helping to clear up this misunderstanding, it's been a tough few days for you guys. :salute:
 
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