P
Parky
Guest
120hz has become the industry standard for home theater LCD's. Wish one of the companies would get off their arse and make a nice 120hz 24" LCD. Haven't seen one yet.
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O
Over50
Guest
First, let me leave no doubt in anyone’s mind that the expression “a little knowledge can be dangerous” certainly applies to me when it comes to computer technology. In my past work life as a communications engineer, the applications I used were of primary interest and importance…the pc was just a tool that made them work and I’ve never had more than a very rudimentary knowledge of PC technology. And, I don’t stay very current with the technology until I have to investigate it for something like my recent upgrade.
So, I tend to rely on other people like my young technical friend whose family owns and operates a well known local computer chain and we upgraded my machine expressly for OFF.
I’m now running this configuration:
MSI P45 neo3 motherboard
Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 3.0 Ghz
1065 Ballistix 2X1Gb (2 Gb of RAM)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260-216 SC
Zahlman cooler on mb, Intel Heat pipe 10cm fan, all in a server size case, lots of fans, blah, blah.
Samsung Syncmaster 2443BW 24 in. LCD
I’m running this system with the E8400 comfortably over clocked at 3.6 Ghz.
I configured for video using all the excellent info that is now on the OFF website for video set-up. What a time saver that is! Many thanks to all the contributors!
And, my sliders are set at 5-4-4-5-3 as I wanted to make all changes keeping my original settings so I could compare results…I can change them later if necessary.
Before the upgrade, my OFF P3 frame rates averaged from low 20 fps to mid 40 fps, dropping to the 'teens' often and even single digit slide shows in some cases.
Just a note that when I reinstalled CFS 3 and OFF after the upgrade I noticed that the sound in OFF would stutter at times and I soon had several CTD and a couple of blue screen/reboots as well. Uninstalling and reinstalling seemed to cure it all.
After the upgrade, WOW… frame rates have jumped to running an average of 60 to 80 fps and often exceeding 100 fps depending on the views and activity. I was delighted, but I’m cautious before hollering from the rooftops so I’ve tested and tested in QC. I discovered that the high frame rates came at a price. I was getting definite tearing and white flashes with quick TrackIR head movement that I hadn’t had before.
Research told me that “Vsync” and “Triple buffering” would likely solve the problem.
The single solution was to change my Vsync from off to “Forced On” and now my rates are capped at 60 fps on the high end but they also hold at that for just about all flight scenarios at least in QC and only occasionally drop a bit by a few frames. The video seems smoother than before as well. The scenery detail is excellent; in fact all the detail is excellent.
So, I’ve got to feel pretty happy with this configuration, but I’m also interested in hearing if others have had a similar experience with graphics in OFF P3.
And, I’m curious to hear whether others think that I should be content with this set-up or should I try something else that may improve frame rates and game functions even more...? My tech friend thinks that more than 2 Gb of this high speed RAM won’t really help much but then we don’t know for sure.
Comments, suggestions?
Just saw this thread and wanted to mention your system is darn near a carbon copy of mine - and the performance results as well. I've run the game with vsync forced on and off, with the latter setting a possible - but not confirmed - cause of a rendering glitch (blank/white patches and lines) a few times. But it's so random I can't actually pinpoint it as a vsync issue. Pol and others offered it might be a memory thing, too, given the high graphics content/load at times.
Anyway, again, the 260-216 SC card paired with the E8400 OC'd to 3.6 GHz is a great setup ... of course I'm biased.. :d
J
Jimko
Guest
Just saw this thread and wanted to mention your system is darn near a carbon copy of mine - and the performance results as well. I've run the game with vsync forced on and off, with the latter setting a possible - but not confirmed - cause of a rendering glitch (blank/white patches and lines) a few times. But it's so random I can't actually pinpoint it as a vsync issue. Pol and others offered it might be a memory thing, too, given the high graphics content/load at times.
Anyway, again, the 260-216 SC card paired with the E8400 OC'd to 3.6 GHz is a great setup ... of course I'm biased.. :d
Hey Over50,
I wondered if I would hear from you...
Yes, you can take some credit (?) and perhaps some blame...:costumes:
I started with the GeForce 260-216SC (which I discovered you were using) on my old MB with 2.2 Ghz cpu. I saw what your CPU was and it attracted my attention, and when I researched it I really liked what I read. So between your specs and my techie friend, I realized that I was building a system much like yours. If I remember, you have more RAM, but I seem to be running quite nicely with my 2Ghz of 1065 although I wonder if there would be any gain in perfomance with more...?
M
Mudman
Guest
Griphos wrote " I think FPS around 30, that STAYS around 30, of course, is plenty good, and certainly any higher than 60 would seem to me to be chasing rapidly diminishing, if not imaginary, returns. "
I'd like to offer a couple of comments:
1) I work designing medical imaging systems and can state from personal experience that there are easily perceptable visible difference between 37.5 Hz and 75 Hz image updates for simple tasks such as scrolling a display window horizontally . At 37.5Hz, most observers can easily perceive a jerkiness to the updates. At 75 Hz, scrolling smoothness is much improved. Most monitors now run at fairly high refresh rates to reduce eye fatigue. The 60 Hz flicker from AC lighting is also readily perceptible by many people, even if only at a reduced level.
There has been a lot of work done on the so called "flicker fusion frequency" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold). When I took a graduate course in human vision in the early 90s, we were quoted figures of 15-30 Hz for the flicker fusion frequency (the rate at which a flickering light begins to be perceived as a steady source). However, the human visual system is much more complex than the simple models sometimes used to describe it and a single number doesn't come close to capturing the true behaviour.
2) One of the other important factors for visual feedback in control systems is the control loop latency -- that it is, the time interval between when the user makes a control change and the time they see the effects of that change on the monitor. For typical gaming scenarios, there is probably at least a one or two frame lag in the signal formation chain between the time the system starts building up the image data for a frame and the time frame is finished writing to the screen. If you are running at a 20 Hz frame rate, then that delay can be 50-100ms. If you are running at a 75 Hz frame rate (and the signal processing engine is keeping up), then the control latency can be reduced to 13-26ms. For most people, particually hardcore gamers, this should result in improved control "feel". If you are watching a movie, on the other hand,latency is irrelevant.
Alas, my old computer can only reach frame rates of 15-25 Hz in a BHAH furball (at reduced graphics settings, v-sync off), so stutter and latencies are both issues for me. I still love flying this sim, however.
Cheers and happy flying!!
I'd like to offer a couple of comments:
1) I work designing medical imaging systems and can state from personal experience that there are easily perceptable visible difference between 37.5 Hz and 75 Hz image updates for simple tasks such as scrolling a display window horizontally . At 37.5Hz, most observers can easily perceive a jerkiness to the updates. At 75 Hz, scrolling smoothness is much improved. Most monitors now run at fairly high refresh rates to reduce eye fatigue. The 60 Hz flicker from AC lighting is also readily perceptible by many people, even if only at a reduced level.
There has been a lot of work done on the so called "flicker fusion frequency" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold). When I took a graduate course in human vision in the early 90s, we were quoted figures of 15-30 Hz for the flicker fusion frequency (the rate at which a flickering light begins to be perceived as a steady source). However, the human visual system is much more complex than the simple models sometimes used to describe it and a single number doesn't come close to capturing the true behaviour.
2) One of the other important factors for visual feedback in control systems is the control loop latency -- that it is, the time interval between when the user makes a control change and the time they see the effects of that change on the monitor. For typical gaming scenarios, there is probably at least a one or two frame lag in the signal formation chain between the time the system starts building up the image data for a frame and the time frame is finished writing to the screen. If you are running at a 20 Hz frame rate, then that delay can be 50-100ms. If you are running at a 75 Hz frame rate (and the signal processing engine is keeping up), then the control latency can be reduced to 13-26ms. For most people, particually hardcore gamers, this should result in improved control "feel". If you are watching a movie, on the other hand,latency is irrelevant.
Alas, my old computer can only reach frame rates of 15-25 Hz in a BHAH furball (at reduced graphics settings, v-sync off), so stutter and latencies are both issues for me. I still love flying this sim, however.
Cheers and happy flying!!
O
Over50
Guest
Hey Over50,
I wondered if I would hear from you...
Yes, you can take some credit (?) and perhaps some blame...:costumes:
I started with the GeForce 260-216SC (which I discovered you were using) on my old MB with 2.2 Ghz cpu. I saw what your CPU was and it attracted my attention, and when I researched it I really liked what I read. So between your specs and my techie friend, I realized that I was building a system much like yours. If I remember, you have more RAM, but I seem to be running quite nicely with my 2Ghz of 1065 although I wonder if there would be any gain in perfomance with more...?
I've read that more than 2 GB with 32 bit XP "can" help with heavy graphics apps, but whether that includes games I don't know. With RAM prices so low it wasn't a cost consideration at the time of my build so I figured why not..
But yes, I'm very happy with the choice of the E8400 plus the 260-216 SC card. Both have a great performance to cost ratio. For example, I was running a steady 90 fps in CoD:WAW at 1600x1200 resolution. Even had the Nvidia 3D AA and AF settings at 16x...but as there's no AA or AF in-game option I don't know if the values were being recognized.
J
Jimko
Guest
Griphos wrote " I think FPS around 30, that STAYS around 30, of course, is plenty good, and certainly any higher than 60 would seem to me to be chasing rapidly diminishing, if not imaginary, returns. "
I'd like to offer a couple of comments:
1) I work designing medical imaging systems and can state from personal experience that there are easily perceptable visible difference between 37.5 Hz and 75 Hz image updates for simple tasks such as scrolling a display window horizontally . At 37.5Hz, most observers can easily perceive a jerkiness to the updates. At 75 Hz, scrolling smoothness is much improved. Most monitors now run at fairly high refresh rates to reduce eye fatigue. The 60 Hz flicker from AC lighting is also readily perceptible by many people, even if only at a reduced level.
There has been a lot of work done on the so called "flicker fusion frequency" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold). When I took a graduate course in human vision in the early 90s, we were quoted figures of 15-30 Hz for the flicker fusion frequency (the rate at which a flickering light begins to be perceived as a steady source). However, the human visual system is much more complex than the simple models sometimes used to describe it and a single number doesn't come close to capturing the true behaviour.
2) One of the other important factors for visual feedback in control systems is the control loop latency -- that it is, the time interval between when the user makes a control change and the time they see the effects of that change on the monitor. For typical gaming scenarios, there is probably at least a one or two frame lag in the signal formation chain between the time the system starts building up the image data for a frame and the time frame is finished writing to the screen. If you are running at a 20 Hz frame rate, then that delay can be 50-100ms. If you are running at a 75 Hz frame rate (and the signal processing engine is keeping up), then the control latency can be reduced to 13-26ms. For most people, particually hardcore gamers, this should result in improved control "feel". If you are watching a movie, on the other hand,latency is irrelevant.
Alas, my old computer can only reach frame rates of 15-25 Hz in a BHAH furball (at reduced graphics settings, v-sync off), so stutter and latencies are both issues for me. I still love flying this sim, however.
Cheers and happy flying!!
A very interesting commentary, Mudman!
These are the kinds of things I speculated about when I referred to the possibility of "improve game functionality" beyond simple graphics quality with higher frame rates. And by that I don't mean that I am at all aware of them, just that I wondered if there are other reasons that the game may run more efficiently with consequent slight improvements to the "human experience".
Q
Queeg
Guest
2) One of the other important factors for visual feedback in control systems is the control loop latency -- that it is, the time interval between when the user makes a control change and the time they see the effects of that change on the monitor. For typical gaming scenarios, there is probably at least a one or two frame lag in the signal formation chain between the time the system starts building up the image data for a frame and the time frame is finished writing to the screen. If you are running at a 20 Hz frame rate, then that delay can be 50-100ms. If you are running at a 75 Hz frame rate (and the signal processing engine is keeping up), then the control latency can be reduced to 13-26ms. For most people, particually hardcore gamers, this should result in improved control "feel". If you are watching a movie, on the other hand,latency is irrelevant.
Alas, my old computer can only reach frame rates of 15-25 Hz in a BHAH furball (at reduced graphics settings, v-sync off), so stutter and latencies are both issues for me. I still love flying this sim, however.
Cheers and happy flying!!
On my rig anyway, my aircraft seems much more responsive when my framerate exceeds 30 FPS. Less than that, and I feel a bit like I'm flying in water. So, to me anyway, FPS is more than just how the game looks -- it's also how my crate flies.