2 Seaters mean death...

S

Stonewall

Guest
I have been playing P3 now for 2 weeks since it came thru my letterbox...
I have started about 8 new pilots up to now...and apart from 1 time (when I unwittingley attacked 2 DR1's and followed the 1 that went low...I KNOW I'm Stupid...). Anyway back to the point....The simple fact is I WILL NOT attack 2 seaters again...They just too Damn deadly...
Anyone got any tips...
 
Well i was wondering is there any way to tune down the rear gunners? Even when their pilot is doing wild manoeuvers and I am below their tails they still seem to get me!
 
To get 2 seater you must stay below them. If you can't see the pilot and the gunner, they can't see you.
 
Skywolf said:
To get 2 seater you must stay below them. If you can't see the pilot and the gunner, they can't see you.
Click to expand...

Yes they can. The gunner can fire through his own plane, it's a game-engine limitation (flaw).
 
This has been posted and discussed a little while back. The rear-gunners have an unrealisticly unlimited arc of fire, as Siggi said. The word was that putting in proper blind spots causes the opposite problem and screws up the ability of the gunners to shoot at all, or something along those lines.

I am hopefull that this makes it onto the 'things to fix' list, as I see it as a fairly large issue in the realism department.

The gunner in your own plane (if you fly a bomber) seems to work good, so I think there is hope.
 
Depending on your machine of choice, B&Z tactics seem the most effective. If you can get a solid burst on the front end of the machine and seperate it from the pack, it makes for a much easier job.

Traditional behind and below tactics are risky due to the game limitations:

High speed, overhead passes work for me.
 
Also, it seems like you can kill the gunner. I have been able to get close enough and put several long streams into the fuselage from behind and then the gunner stops shooting at me. So either he is dead, or the gun is jammed or he's empty, but it does seem to work. At any rate, you can then pick the slow mover off at your leisure. Obviously, this is more effective if you seperate 1 from the pack and are in a fast plane with twin guns so you can close and fire quickly (I was in a camel the few times I have made this work).
 
Rick, I believe you are correct, and the gunner can be killed.

I never though of the gun-jam code affecting the tail gunners. I wonder if it does?
 
My method is to take them on head-on or from underneath in front. I aim for the engine and fuel tank area and get a few shots in. When the gunner starts to range-in on me, I break it off. My method is to attempt to damage the engine or hit the fuel tank. I don't try to slug it out with them.
 
These are not your momma's two-seaters, nor are they RB's. Think about it. You attack a two-seater from the rear. You are going at 115 mph, he is going at 95mph. Your closing speed is 20mph - to the rear gunner, you are practically standing still, hanging in mid air. It's a fairly simple solution for him - aim and shoot, correct if necessary. Now attack a group of them. Now you've got six rear gunners lining you up. If you get hit in that situation, well, tough luck old bean, but that is natural selection at work.
Knocking down two seaters was not easy - in fact it was damn dangerous. Some were easier ie the Quirck, and others were really dangerous - the Biff and the Hannoveraner. So if you are going to go after them, plan your attack - don't just dive in with guns blazing, coz if you do, you will be the one that is blazing. Follow the suggestions here - what worked in the Great War will work for you - go for the straggler - attack from the front - and try and do it on the first pass. Do Not try and slug it out. You will lose.
Now granted, so far we have not been able to blind the gunner in the traditional spot under the tail, but if we can, we will. But remember, that unless a crew was intent on taking pictures, you were not likely to surprise them sneaking up underneath unnoticed, and the pilot simply had to bank to give his gunner a clear shot at you parked underneath.
So, yeah, go after two-seaters. That was the job of fighter pilots in the Great War; the raison d'etre of the Air Services was to see what the enemy was doing on the ground, and to direct artillery fire to disrupt their operations. Your job is to stop their two-seaters from doing that, and allow your's unfettered access to their airspace. But when you do go after two-seaters, make sure you have the advantage.
Or fly a two-seater yourself! You won't believe how much fun it is!
Cheers,
shredward
 
If you are flying along behind a two-seater and he can see you then you deserve to get nailed. Of course. But that really has nothing to do with the problem. Having bullets breaking the laws of physics (getting shot by a gunner firing back through the pusher engine of a FE2 for example) is not conducive to historically re-enacting WW1 fighter techniques (attack FE2's from the front??).

Anyway, it's an issue that falls near the top of my 'hope-this-gets-looked-at-eventually' list, even if it is later rather than sooner. Nice to hear that it will get 'tuned up' if possible.

Do the WW2 plane gunners in CSF3 do magic shooting too? Just curious.

P.S. I love the sim and enjoying it very much. The gunner thing is one nit out of a hundred things I love about OFF3
 
Attacking from behind is really a no-no in my book. Imagine he's flying at 90-100 mph and you are coming in at 100-110, that's a 10 mph closure rate (not much more than a very fast jog). How long will it take you to get close enough to shoot him? All he has to do is sideslip a little bit to give his gunner a clear shot. Not to mention that those devils never fly by themselves. Interlocking fire is just as bad airborne as it was on the ground.

It's best to hit them head on, or from above in a screaming dive. Or better yet, order your wingies to attack while you keep the single seaters off them.
 
Try a 2 seater as gunner as Shred says as see how relatively easy it is to hit a "fast" target which relatively to you is moving like a turtle. Move a lot more *relative* to the enemy. Even with a clumsy joystick to move the gun it's reasonably easy to hit incoming craft.
 
shredward said:
These are not your momma's two-seaters, nor are they RB's. Think about it. You attack a two-seater from the rear. You are going at 115 mph, he is going at 95mph. Your closing speed is 20mph - to the rear gunner, you are practically standing still, hanging in mid air. It's a fairly simple solution for him - aim and shoot, correct if necessary. Now attack a group of them. Now you've got six rear gunners lining you up. If you get hit in that situation, well, tough luck old bean, but that is natural selection at work.
Knocking down two seaters was not easy - in fact it was damn dangerous. Some were easier ie the Quirck, and others were really dangerous - the Biff and the Hannoveraner. So if you are going to go after them, plan your attack - don't just dive in with guns blazing, coz if you do, you will be the one that is blazing. Follow the suggestions here - what worked in the Great War will work for you - go for the straggler - attack from the front - and try and do it on the first pass. Do Not try and slug it out. You will lose.
Now granted, so far we have not been able to blind the gunner in the traditional spot under the tail, but if we can, we will. But remember, that unless a crew was intent on taking pictures, you were not likely to surprise them sneaking up underneath unnoticed, and the pilot simply had to bank to give his gunner a clear shot at you parked underneath.
So, yeah, go after two-seaters. That was the job of fighter pilots in the Great War; the raison d'etre of the Air Services was to see what the enemy was doing on the ground, and to direct artillery fire to disrupt their operations. Your job is to stop their two-seaters from doing that, and allow your's unfettered access to their airspace. But when you do go after two-seaters, make sure you have the advantage.
Or fly a two-seater yourself! You won't believe how much fun it is!
Cheers,
shredward
Click to expand...


I agree but the MG damage can be toned down and it will be far more realistic in my humble opinion.

In real life if they were this deadly and accurate the two seaters would have shot down every air force twice over.

It might be minor thing to tone down the MG damage (or it might not ) , it would be more realistic ...just my 2 cents :):whistle:

it's no big deal overall as OFF BHAH is the 8th wonder of the world to me...so it's just feedback ....but in a perfect well, the user could determine how "realisitc" the MGs of the two seaters are as well as enemy AI level (in workshop).
 
OFF is the best sim out there and I commend it and recommed it every chance I get. I really hesitate to say anything negative because often that is all we hear on a forum like this...people are quick to bitch about their problems and we often don't hear about the many many great things that we all love and enjoy about OFF.

But seriously, are we really trying to convince one another that this 'magic gunner' thing is not at least a 'wee' problem?

Are people telling me with a straight face that I should shoot down 'pusher' aircraft from the front, and that it is not unrealistic if the pusher's gunner can magically shoot me through the engine and propeller?

I am probably one of the biggest OFF 'fan boys' out there, but even I have to politely say 'sorry, not buyin it'.

The best response I have seen in this thread is Shredder's...'if it can be fixed, we will fix it'. I respect that. If it is looked into and can't be fixed, that will be sad but I will respect that too.

Sorry for the rant...I know I take this stuff too seriously, but it is because OFF is just so damn good.
 
I just received my OFF disk today and am eagerly awaiting my copy of CFS3. I also agree on attacking 2-seaters headon. I mentioned the come from beneath attack because single seaters in WWI were told that this was the best way. Perhaps the awesome designers:amen: can fix this little problem. After all, it would be fun to see a enemy pilot shoot himself down.:Banane15: Scenario below:
Pilot: I can't to seem to control the aircraft Heinrich!
Heinrich: Err...there might be a slight problem with the tail sir...
Pilot: And what might that be?!
Heinrich: Well..It seems that I have shot our tail off sir!

No applause please:hand: Yes, I know I'm not a good writer.:faint:
 
I appreciate 77Scout's honesty and diplomacy. The devs have done an amazing job with a seven year old engine that is not their own, but two-seater observers firing through their own planes is a big issue for some people, especially when realism and immersion (and two-seaters) are being touted as major selling points of P3.

Some people may not even buy BH&H until this is resolved. Here's hoping for everyone the devs can work some more of their magic and it is.
 
FritzFraghof said:
I appreciate 77Scout's honesty and diplomacy. The devs have done an amazing job with a seven year old engine that is not their own, but two-seater observers firing through their own planes is a big issue for some people, especially when realism and immersion (and two-seaters) are being touted as major selling points of P3.

Some people may not even buy BH&H until this is resolved. Here's hoping for everyone the devs can work some more of their magic and it is.
Click to expand...

Amazing - are you so hung up in this yourself that you need to invoke:

Woah OTHERS MAY NOT BUY it....:wiggle:

There are many reasons why others may not buy OFF but by far is the blowing out of proportion perceived 'issues' or other wise...

We have balanced the spread and hit % of rear gunners to make the end result of sitting behind a 2 seater as dangerous as reported and so far we believe that in P3 it is quite accurate - and this is irrespective of the tail surfaces issue...

So the tail surfaces issue becomes one of a visual 'issue' only and so don't hold you breath on a fix... indeed maybe stop playing the sim because there are many other visual 'issues' in the sim due tothe same factor - i.e limitations of CPU and GPU power...

However if you really want to attack two seaters successfully read up on the net or in books on how to do it - and you will find in OFF that the same tactics work - so to us rear gunners at the moment are 'simulated' well - yes they are not real men back there ya know - its all recreated on screen :wiggle:

Next you will want rear gunner 'shooting errors' that bring down his own plane - yep happened - but we have not simulated that either - dream on.

WM
 
Finally before folks then assume that we cannot adjust them - be aware that we can adjust all parameters of the rear gunner and can make it that you can sit behind a rear gunner whilst he sprays away and every bullet misses you so you can shoot him and his pilot down with consumate ease.

At the moment we have no desire to change it as we have spent time balancing it - try the proper tactics you will be rewarded with success.


WM
 
Sorry Winder, but after reading your post I had to go do a test and I disagree with your analysis.

Me and one wingman vs six German 2-seaters at 6000ft, head-on merge (realism at 90%, auto-mixture on).

I flew an evasive pass (curvy), and the 2-seaters were breaking left right and centre...that's both them and me all over the place. They hosed me down good and proper. That's not me "parking on their tail", that's me being about as difficult a target as any target could possibly be for an air-gunner. Curving, head-on at speed and gunner's plane being about as unstable and erratic a platform as it could be. Hosed me down, engine knocked out, fabric and wood flying. I can make a video if you like.

You may not think this is important, but I can tell you it was this exact same problem that put a lot of people off playing IL2 against the bombers. Super-natural gunners and the golden/magic BB.

Nobody's saying that one should be able to park up a 2-seaters ass with impunity, but neither should one have intelligent tactics that worked in real life met with a hail of un-naturally accurate lead. Now it may be the case that the AI cannot be worked to allow one but preclude the other (accurate against a tail-parker, but inaccurate against a jinker), so in my opinion there are two options...the current one, where the gunners are super-natural, or the opposite, where the gunners have a hard time hitting the side of a barn, even when it's parked on their ass.

Me, I'd prefer the latter. I'm simply not going to attack two-seaters if they are able to spray me no matter WHAT I do (high-speed head-on pass, come up under the tail in their blind spot etc). THAT is just the kind of frustrating nonsense that'll put people off real quick, just like it did in IL2.

2-seaters are the bread to any fighter-pilots diet. Other fighters are the meat. If a pilot sees a 2-seater it should be a reason for joy, an easier target with which to raise ones tally, not an occasion to be fearful and declined.

I should have picked up, at worst, a few stray rounds on that pass, not a devastating barrage of knock-me-out MG sniper-fire. NO gunner could have pulled that off, never mind six of them, all cavorting and tumbling around. It was just plain wrong.

I'm not demanding that it be fixed in a patch, but I would respectfully ask for an instruction on which file to modify, and how, so that I can play the game MY way and not have it spoiled by something that is, in MY particular opinion, wholly unrealistic.

With the greatest respect old chap. :)
 
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