2015 NASCAR Silly Season

[Terry]

The best way to make them safer is to leave the HP where it is, remove ground effects leaving stock body height, remove the spoiler and splitter, also use a harder tire with less grip. This will force the drivers to slow it down a lot entering the corners. It would be nice to see them have to drive again rather than just aim.

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Some food for thought about the safety of these reduced horsepower cars:

-Dan Wheldon, Paul Dan, & Tony Renna all died.
-Sam Schmitt is paralyzed from the neck down.
-Dario Franchitti & Kenny Braack can never race again.

Obviously open wheel need to bring in NASCAR experts on safety to render the cars safer. Look at NASCAR - they can now have horrendous looking crashes and everybody can have a juicebox afterwards. Can you seriously make the argument that any of these drivers would be fine if they crashed in the same way in a higher hp car faster? Of course not.

The point is racing is no longer and probably never again be truly about innovation, speed and pushing the edge of man's control over a car. Never again be about separating men from boys based on courage due to fear of bodily harm.

Racing is all about SAFETY because you must at all costs preserve the financial wealth of track owners and insurance companies. So safety trumps the freedom of driver courage and innovation because of money. Every fan, track worker, pit crew member and driver has a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to go home safe and sound sucking on a juicebox after every race ------ and then there is the MONEY (see above). Safety ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS trumps freedom - see NSA DHS etc for the country but it applies to racing too. Any strategy that tries to allow increases in hp that tempt a man to do more than possible risking safety CANNOT be allowed. Max speed is what must be controlled/prepared for hence we are where we are. NASCAR, IRL and F1 have ALL slowed down.

Think of it this way - Dale Earnhardt died doing what he loved but maybe everybody looking at that crash understood - he should have lived - the car/track/rules just didn't allow it - there wasn't enough safety. Hence we MUST do everything in our power to enable the next Dale Earnhardt to live through a crash like that and race again. That is the lesson of Dale Earnhardt. Racing MUST inherently be made to be a SAFE sport.

I've said all of this so many times it makes me ill to do it again. I've never said I think it fundamentally right - I'm saying this is how it is. As long as we have societies that can sue for BIG MONEY based on lack of safety - even if lack of safety is what we want (cuz it cant happen to me) this will never change.

The solutions - tort reform, people's education about expectations, spend the money on tracks to handle more speed... Until some combination of these happen - get over it get used to it and enjoy some actually pretty good racing that just empathizes different aspects of racing. Oh an what good is bitking about missing a past that cannot be again.

JMBO! (translated - Just My Blunt Opinion) for whatever it is worth.

-Ed-

 

[Panther_99FS]

Actually,
A combination of F1 & NASCAR safety experts would be best.

F1 hasn't had pro death since Senna in 1994 - the same cannot be said for NASCAR
Dario Franchitti's career ending crash on a street course has absolutely nothing in common with NASCAR whereas outside the obvious aero similarities in construct, F1 also races on street courses.

However, NASCAR expertise could be brought in the case of Sam Schmidt's paralysis causing crash on the Walt Disney World Oval...

With Wheldon's crash, a combination of F1 aero expertise and impact energy reduction expertise could be used with NASCAR back injury data.

Due the spring head injury received by F1s Felipe Massa (and argually Senna too), Indycar has now adopted the carbon fiber piece on the helmet for added driver protection. This is something that's not a necessity in NASCAR due to the closed cockpit. However, Sprint car drivers could probably benefit from this helmet mod.

 

[Panther_99FS]

And that's the other side of the debate Wombat.

One could also debate that NASCAR vehicles are so safe now that restrictor plates are there only for fan safety & not driver safety.

 

[b52bob]

Would very much like to see JJ in a F1 car. Not that we will, there is big $$$$ involved in sponsorship and I doubt JJ has that big of an ego like others.

Still......

 

[Panther_99FS]

Would very much like to see JJ in a F1 car. Not that we will, there is big $$$$ involved in sponsorship and I doubt JJ has that big of an ego like others.

Still......

Don't think for a second that when Jimmie looks in the mirror, he doesn't know that he's the shi-te...The difference is that Jimmie doesn't wear his ego on his sleeve....But it's there alright.....

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Yes I think the issue is money and safety. It is both and true in NASCAR, IRL and F1. You can argue motorcycle racing is an exception yet Wombat said riders still get killed - be interesting to see how that goes in the future. There are two points that really matter here.

1) motorcycles are little - cars are big and cars coming apart as a result of a crash even bigger. Even if drivers are safe fans aren't and that is a huge consideration.
2) drivers on motorcycles do respect each other more than cars because of how exposed they are to harm and because they are small and can show more control. A stock car can flip 7 or 8 times and the driver just enjoy the ride and a juicebox.

To compare motorcycles to cars is I think bogus.

There is no good solution in my opinion other than a redesigned track built for more speed if that is what you want racing to be. But that costs big bucks.

I'd like to see Jimmie in an F1 car too with Chad as CC - only then they would need to run a Ford since only Ferrari engines have ever won more F1 races than Ford engines with how many more years of F1 racing? Only stands to reason American engines would rule over european. We got a good Ford F1 engine now?

An yes Jimmie has an ego but it is well controlled cuz he knows his roots - you have to have some ego or you ain't a racer.

-Ed-

 

[Panther_99FS]

I'd like to see Jimmie in an F1 car too with Chad as CC - only then they would need to run a Ford since only Ferrari engines have ever won more F1 races than Ford engines with how many more years of F1 racing? Only stands to reason American engines would rule over european. We got a good Ford F1 engine now?

An yes Jimmie has an ego but it is well controlled cuz he knows his roots - you have to have some ego or you ain't a racer.

-Ed-

While I also wouldn't mind seeing Jimmie in F1, the Cosworth's disappeared after 2013 as they were woefully short on HP compared to the other manufacturers...

 

[joe bob]

The numbers mentioned for motorcycle fatalities in a year seem larger than the average for most other motor sports.
Any contact in motorcycles is a huge deal so the rubbing is racing types tend to be quickly weeded out

The safety culture of NASCAR has very much improved since Dale Earnhardt died. NASCAR's attitude before then was one of relatively moderate rules with
a heavy emphasis on individual team responsibility. You don't like a HANS device, no sweat and so on. Any one entering the infield signed away their rights to NASCAR responsibility.
While CART had their own rescue teams and equipment including doctors, NASCAR had the local volunteer fire department and ambulance service show up on race day.
Then there were a rash of fatal accidents including Earnhardt and it became apparent something was no longer working.
The reason even large Newspapers like the Charlotte Observer were pressing to see Earnhardt's autopsy files was not morbid curiosity but the fact that no one really trusted NASCAR to face the issues involved.
NASCAR exploded in popularity soon after and the drivers became more like national rock stars and the face of the sport. NASCAR's attitude had to change and it has.


As far as the IRL goes, it is hard for me to imagine racing on the super speedways is ever going to be as safe as other types of racing. It is the track that has not been able to keep up with the expectations of safety as much as if not more than the cars.

 

[Panther_99FS]

As far as the IRL goes, it is hard for me to imagine racing on the super speedways is ever going to be as safe as other types of racing. It is the track that has not been able to keep up with the expectations of safety as much as if not more than the cars.

JoeBob,
IMHO, it's all about aero and NOT hp...here's why.

In the 70s right up until the IRL, at IMS, the cars were achieving BIG straightaway speed. But there wasn't much grip in the corners so drivers had to LIFT off the throttle.

IMS straightaway speeds now are roughly the same but the difference is that folks are going flat out with virtually no lifting. Corner speeds are quite high.

And where are a huge amount of accidents? In the corners....

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

So by taking away aero grip most accidents will happen on the straights? You want these guys to have a foot clutch too? Roll back the calendar to the 70s and try chasing hp acceleration down the straights? Screaming big block engines - who can out brake who - good gawd lawsuits for hearing loss. You think that is safer? I doubt it. Changes the character of the racing to a blast from the past which is the memory lane some want to return to - but safer?

-Ed-

 

[joe bob]

JoeBob,
IMHO, it's all about aero and NOT hp...here's why.

In the 70s right up until the IRL, at IMS, the cars were achieving BIG straightaway speed. But there wasn't much grip in the corners so drivers had to LIFT off the throttle.

IMS straightaway speeds now are roughly the same but the difference is that folks are going flat out with virtually no lifting. Corner speeds are quite high.

And where are a huge amount of accidents? In the corners....

Yes, being a rectangle Indy does have the potential to slow down cars. The last time I paid attention to Indy I think they were lightly braking on entry.

The super speedways I think are best left to the past are ones like Talladega. The wide sweeping turns were great for the 1960s where everyone was impressed by every advance in speed but now it is just dangerous
and the racing is a mockery of what real racing should be. Some fans seem impressed by the close racing but it is all artificial.

The ideal race track to me is one where the driver has plenty of horsepower, in fact enough that he has to modulate it coming out of turns lest he get loose. Seeing a driver on a road course hustling the car is pure racing to me.
One that goes from rain to dry during the race really separates the men from the boys, pure heaven to watch.

 

[b52bob]

NASCAR should throw in at least 2-3 dirt track races. Replace the Talledaga races with these. Should show us who has the talent!

Bob

 

[Terry]

Lets keep Talladega but flatten the turns.

 

[Panther_99FS]

Yes, being a rectangle Indy does have the potential to slow down cars. The last time I paid attention to Indy I think they were lightly braking on entry.

The super speedways I think are best left to the past are ones like Talladega. The wide sweeping turns were great for the 1960s where everyone was impressed by every advance in speed but now it is just dangerous
and the racing is a mockery of what real racing should be. Some fans seem impressed by the close racing but it is all artificial.

The ideal race track to me is one where the driver has plenty of horsepower, in fact enough that he has to modulate it coming out of turns lest he get loose. Seeing a driver on a road course hustling the car is pure racing to me.
One that goes from rain to dry during the race really separates the men from the boys, pure heaven to watch.

Agreed 100%

 

[Panther_99FS]

NASCAR should throw in at least 2-3 dirt track races. Replace the Talledaga races with these. Should show us who has the talent!

Bob

Truck race at Eldora was the best race of the season - Sprint & Nationwide series included!

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

Some fans seem impressed by the close racing but it is all artificial.

The ideal race track to me is one where the driver has plenty of horsepower, in fact enough that he has to modulate it coming out of turns lest he get loose. Seeing a driver on a road course hustling the car is pure racing to me.
One that goes from rain to dry during the race really separates the men from the boys, pure heaven to watch.

Close racing is great! It just takes a different set of skills - co-opetition as DW called it. Adds great variety to short track and road courses in NASCAR. Nothing artificial about it in any way shape or form.

The second sentence is exactly how you justify watching two drivers racing for 2nd a minute or two behind first - particularly in F1. You can call it great racing I don't - just losers battling to see who has the bigger L on their forehead. The point is to win the race - not a man in a car versus a man in a car to see who can get by who - if it isn't for first or working for a real chance to get to first I'll change the channel to golf. I admit sometimes it is amusing if they stroo up. It can also matter in a tight points race but usually does not. To each their own. Me my favorites are basically NASCAR, OffRoad, WRC, and Aussie Utes - Open wheel if it is handy to watch and close - but I never get up early to watch a rigged race - cars should be quasi equal and be about drivers not owners. France got this right even though I have been disgusted at how he has treated my MoPar brands through the years - from the 426 to the wings.

As for Wombat he should look up the history of Cosworth. Ford and Cosworth worked together for decades since like 58. So yes a Ford Cosworth or Ford is an American engine since Ford is American. As soon as you partner with an American company the product is no longer pure European (in this case). I never said or implied that blocks or heads or any such were moved from America to Cosworth to make a Ford Cosworth or Ford - but to think Ford had nothing to do with those engines I think is not real. I bet there were Ford engineers in those shops - be interesting to know to what extent. Now Ferrari is pure European.

I haven't watched Nationwide or Trucks much lately - no time so if there is true talent like a Logano coming up I haven't seen it - maybe time to catch up a bit.

-Ed-

 

[joe bob]

Ed, when speaking of close racing I was referring to the drafting that goes on at talledega. Spotters negotiating during the race to pick drafting partners, no matter how good the car or driver no one can pull away from a pack, basically it is close proximity racing not close competition. I think it is artificial because it is the restrictions placed on the engines that make for that nose to tail pack of cars not closely matched cars and drivers.
That is artificial close racing to me.
Close competition such as a Darlington race where two guys have spent the whole afternoon dialing in their cars, one has it working best in the short radius turn and the other has it dialed in to the wider radius turn, coming out of turn 4 door to door, that is NASCAR at it's most pure.

 

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

First Cosworth history at the Cosworth site says early on maybe in 58 when it began developing the Ford 105E engine which won a race in 1960. Jim Clark was the driver. Ford and Cosworth apparently go back to the very first days of Cosworth. Ford UK has always been owned by Ford USA since Henry Ford started it in the 20s (I know of the earlier incarnation from 1909) - Ford UK is not a company independent of it's owner - neither is Ford Europe or any other country. I've no doubt ford USA approved Ford UK working with Cosworth or I bet some portion of those expenditures would have come back to American shareholders. Anyway Ford and Cosworth partnered on engines for decades until 98 when guess who outright bought Cosworth? Ford! And on it goes - what kind of engine goes into an Aston Martin today? Well duh a Ford duratec developed with guess who? Cosworth! To try to separate Ford from Cosworth is I think ridiculous and Ford is American. Now when did Ford engineers first work with Cosworth engineers - I've no idea - the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, when? I'd like to know but if a pure 100% (as pure as Ferrari) Cosworth engine with no ford expertise or cash involvement won all those F1 races call it a cosworth not a ford. Now those books you list are interesting - which one spells out the corporate business side in detail cash and expertise flows - forget the racing history - which one lays out the who met who and talked to who about what and the terms of every deal between ford and cosworth. That is the one that I am interested in. Now it may well be that ford provided cash and took the glory of name association and absolutely nothing else of any kind ever went on whatsoever but I'll need proof of that. Makes no sense that two companies can be so intertwined since apparently day 1 and nothing went on.

Anyway getting back to close racing - I did mean talledega style racing. I see it as completely valid racing just a different form. I would not want it to be on week after week but the 4 races a year we have now are fine with me and I would hate to see them go. I do not ascribe to the idea that the purity of racing means basically 2 drivers 2 cars and a track or road in whatever weather no other limitations trying to beat each other is the only way to define racing. Auto racing is a competition between drivers in cars under whatever conditions artificial or not. But that is my way of looking at it.

-Ed-

 

[Panther_99FS]

To each their own.
-Ed-

Interesting how on the one hand you say the above...

But then on the other, you take every opportunity that you can to insult or put down other people's choices in motorsports....Yep, I understand you now...