6 missions in and I'm NOT having fun...

O

Over50

Guest
In a word, terrible. After doing so well one on one in the training missions I figured I was ready to jump into a campaign. Obviously not.

So far I've been shot down twice, landed by choice (wounded) twice, and quit 2 missions after my squad mates ran off on their own while I followed the waypoint header like a good soldier.

Even with rudder pedals the jerries out turn, out climb and out speed me in virtually every circumstance and/or go into a hoop-te-do on the few occasions I've been able to get on their six making it impossible to hit them. And this is only the early part of the game? :banghead:

By the way, I'm with the 13th Aero based at Toul flying the Spad XIII if that makes any difference.
 
In a word, terrible. After doing so well one on one in the training missions I figured I was ready to jump into a campaign. Obviously not.

So far I've been shot down twice, landed by choice (wounded) twice, and quit 2 missions after my squad mates ran off on their own while I followed the waypoint header like a good soldier.

Even with rudder pedals the jerries out turn, out climb and out speed me in virtually every circumstance and/or go into a hoop-te-do on the few occasions I've been able to get on their six making it impossible to hit them. And this is only the early part of the game? :banghead:

And now you know why most pilots did not last more than 17 hours flying time. You are experiencing what WWI was really like, as per all the books and material on first hand accounts have been written on.

Now... to stay alive... read Boelcke's Dicta, and live by it. Believe me, I am no better a pilot than the next guy, but to stay alive, you have to really think about what you are doing, and keep your advantages on your side. Your enemy will exploit you and your disadvantages very quickly, as you will learn to exploit his.

It's not the game, it's your skills. You need more time in the seat and just have to take your lumps for a while. You'll get better, and you'll see the advantages of each plane as the years progress. For instance, which plane is a BnZ, which plane is a turn fighter. How much energy can you loose before you stall. Where are your escape route.. how many enemy are there.. and are you in advantage?

Just be patient, this is not a 100kill arcade game. It's as close as we could get to making it real.

All the best,

OvS
 
And now you know why most pilots did not last more than 17 hours flying time. You are experiencing what WWI was really like, as per all the books and material on first hand accounts have been written on.

Now... to stay alive... read Boelcke's Dicta, and live by it. Believe me, I am no better a pilot than the next guy, but to stay alive, you have to really think about what you are doing, and keep your advantages on your side. Your enemy will exploit you and your disadvantages very quickly, as you will learn to exploit his.

It's not the game, it's your skills. You need more time in the seat and just have to take your lumps for a while. You'll get better, and you'll see the advantages of each plane as the years progress. For instance, which plane is a BnZ, which plane is a turn fighter. How much energy can you loose before you stall. Where are your escape route.. how many enemy are there.. and are you in advantage?

Just be patient, this is not a 100kill arcade game. It's as close as we could get to making it real.

All the best,

OvS

Well, I've learned I can't survive trying to out turn someone. Funny how my airspeed drops off while the my persuer seems to get faster (and able to out turn me as well). If this was typical then the Spad was a bucket to fly compared to the adversaries..
 
Spad is a Boom and zoom fighter! Don't try to turn with a DVII. Extend plenty of distance, then zip past firing with your awesome speed.
 
Spad is a Boom and zoom fighter! Don't try to turn with a DVII. Extend plenty of distance, then zip past firing with your awesome speed.

Ah so. I'll give that a try. Heck, can't get much worse than it is now.. :mad:
 
I echo what OVS said, sticking to the Dicta has pushed me up to 29 kills with my current career with over 30 hours flying time. I'm sure I'll die sooner or later, but I'm being as ridiculously careful as I can, and that includes doing very un-sexy things like running for my ever loving life for the nearest friendly airbase the minute I realize I've been attacked at the disadvantage by superior forces.

To give specific advice, you need to practice a bit in the Spad if you're getting beaten regularly. You really want to avoid a turning fight in the Spad, especially if you're dealing with Fokker D.VII's or more rarely Dr.1's. I'm pretty sure that even Albatros and Pfalz machines might be able to turn with you, so you need to use the advantages of your machine. Use the Spad to energy fight and use your superior speed to avoid the more nimble Germans. You should be able to start racking up the kills with it in no time, it's a ridiculously dangerous plane once you get the hang of it. If your flying style is more suited to a turning dogfight without as much acrobatics, try the Sopwith Camel.
 
I echo what OVS said, sticking to the Dicta has pushed me up to 29 kills with my current career with over 30 hours flying time. I'm sure I'll die sooner or later, but I'm being as ridiculously careful as I can, and that includes doing very un-sexy things like running for my ever loving life for the nearest friendly airbase the minute I realize I've been attacked at the disadvantage by superior forces.

To give specific advice, you need to practice a bit in the Spad if you're getting beaten regularly. You really want to avoid a turning fight in the Spad, especially if you're dealing with Fokker D.VII's or more rarely Dr.1's. I'm pretty sure that even Albatros and Pfalz machines might be able to turn with you, so you need to use the advantages of your machine. Use the Spad to energy fight and use your superior speed to avoid the more nimble Germans. You should be able to start racking up the kills with it in no time, it's a ridiculously dangerous plane once you get the hang of it. If your flying style is more suited to a turning dogfight without as much acrobatics, try the Sopwith Camel.

Ok I'm inspired. That's a lot of kills...wow
 
I echo what OVS said, sticking to the Dicta has pushed me up to 29 kills with my current career with over 30 hours flying time. I'm sure I'll die sooner or later, but I'm being as ridiculously careful as I can, and that includes doing very un-sexy things like running for my ever loving life for the nearest friendly airbase the minute I realize I've been attacked at the disadvantage by superior forces.

To give specific advice, you need to practice a bit in the Spad if you're getting beaten regularly. You really want to avoid a turning fight in the Spad, especially if you're dealing with Fokker D.VII's or more rarely Dr.1's. I'm pretty sure that even Albatros and Pfalz machines might be able to turn with you, so you need to use the advantages of your machine. Use the Spad to energy fight and use your superior speed to avoid the more nimble Germans. You should be able to start racking up the kills with it in no time, it's a ridiculously dangerous plane once you get the hang of it. If your flying style is more suited to a turning dogfight without as much acrobatics, try the Sopwith Camel.

For the benefit of this short-timer, just where might I find this "Boelcke's Dicta"
 
Polovski's right about the Spad. It does help to have a bit of background in knowing that. I myself know that little fact from Red Baron 3D :)

But yeah, I guess it's a bit of a learning curve. The classic example of a great turn fighter is the Sopwith Camel or Fokker Dr. 1. You were flying the Spad, which is probably THE best example of a fighter you DON'T want to turn fight with, hence why you should use boom and zoom!

Good luck :)
 
Ok I'm inspired. That's a lot of kills...wow

Don't be too inspired, I'm in an Albatros D.II in late 1916 so a lot of my kills are DH2's, Bristol Scouts and those poor unfortunate BE2's. I don't fare quite as well when Nieuports or Pups are on the scene.

I did just put in a claim on two Escadrille 69 Nieuport 17's and an observation balloon though. I got chased back over my lines by their buddies not long after.
 
The Spad XIII is a flying brick. Very fast, durable, good firepower, and in the right hands, a decent fighter. Problems arise when you run into the DVII's as they'll out-turn you, and if you lose even a moderate percentage of your airspeed, they're fast enough to catch you before you can run. Usually a good idea to run as soon as they show up....lol. The DII's and III's and V's you might stand a chance against.

Cheers,

Parky
 
In a word, terrible. After doing so well one on one in the training missions I figured I was ready to jump into a campaign. Obviously not.

So far I've been shot down twice, landed by choice (wounded) twice, and quit 2 missions after my squad mates ran off on their own while I followed the waypoint header like a good soldier.

Even with rudder pedals the jerries out turn, out climb and out speed me in virtually every circumstance and/or go into a hoop-te-do on the few occasions I've been able to get on their six making it impossible to hit them. And this is only the early part of the game? :banghead:

By the way, I'm with the 13th Aero based at Toul flying the Spad XIII if that makes any difference.

Over50,

Ouch did you pick the wrong plane to start out in. You have to remember most all of the people you find here have been flying sims for years. I myself spent years flying Warbirds and Aces High and those are all against other players, no AI.

The Spads are extremely difficult planes to start out with. They are what are know as energy fighters. If you try to turn fight in them you'll lose every time. With the Spads you want to dive in make your firing pass and use the speed you built in the dive to zoom back up above your adversary. Then rinse and repeat as necessary, very much a patient thinking man's airplane.

If your really serious about learning Air Combat Manuevering (ACM) there is only one book, the bible of ACM. Robert Shaws Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering. It was written by him while he was in the Navy and before the Top Gun school. It's written in the Jet era but the vast majority of it deals with gun combat and every bit of it is relevant to any air combat. Here's a link.

http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Tactics-Maneuvering-New/dp/0870210599

Scott
 
If your really serious about learning Air Combat Manuevering (ACM) there is only one book, the bible of ACM. Robert Shaws Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering.

Gotta second that. My much-dog-eared copy was autographed by the man himself :).

Shaw will be the 1st guy to tell you, however, that the book is a very dull read. Besides that, you're not going to grok it right off. Read the relevant chapters, fly some trying to put it into practice, fail miserably, repeat. Eventually, it'll all make sense. But it takes a combination of hard study and a lot of painful experience before that happens. Sleeping with the book under your pillow seems to help :).

Also remember that E-fighting, such as what you need to do in the Spad, is the highest art in ACM. It is far harder to do well than stallfighting, because you have to attain a Zen-like control over your adrenaline, greed, and Hate. But your Hate is what drives you to master it, from all the frustration along the way. It is written, "The path of the Wicked shall be the hardest, so that the Wicked may become the Hardest." Give in to the Dark Side :)
 
I am also one of those 'one trick ponies', and my only trick is turn-turn-turn. I need to learn some alternate moves and have read a bit about high yo-yos, etc etc but really haven't figured it out.

I would love it if someone posted an OFF video of some good dogfighting using the SPAD, showing the moves, and particularly how to keep the enemy in sight while executing them.

Any takers?
 
\

Thanks for the link. A lot to consider...and learn. Next time up I'll try to keep with the dive and shoot method with the Spad.

By the way, my combat flight sim experience has been WWII aircraft which had some horsepower and as such more options. It's going to take time to learn the nuances of combat with powered kites..

Over50

It's exactly the same. While the WW1 aircraft are slower, climb slower, and dive slower so do your adversary's everything that works with a WW2 aircraft will work with a WW1 aircraft. Think of fighting a D-VII with your Spad like fighting BF-109 with a P-47.

Scott
 
Over50, if you want to fly an Allied "turn fighter", I respectfully suggest the N17 if you want to fly French, or the Sopwith Tripe (Royal Naval Air Service, not RFC) if you want to fly Brit.

If you join a French squadron flying N17's when they first came into service, or a Brit RNAS squad when the Tripe first came on the scene, you should be able to twist & turn with the best the Germans can throw at you at the time :).
 
In a word, terrible. After doing so well one on one in the training missions I figured I was ready to jump into a campaign. Obviously not.

So far I've been shot down twice, landed by choice (wounded) twice, and quit 2 missions after my squad mates ran off on their own while I followed the waypoint header like a good soldier.
.

Learn to CHEAT, it's rather simple really, make up for a lack of cat-like reflexes, or the eyes of an eagle, by Cheating, who's to know except you, and you're not talking. If you wish to walk around, in a darkened room, repeatedly banging your shins into the coffee table, I suppose that's your choice. If so try to follow this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYMZlrLVosA&feature=related

If you find even that staggeringly difficult, CHEAT. There are enough variable settings in Workshop to play OFF as an ARCADE shooter, or One Challenging S.O.B., with a multitude of steps inbetween

http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/showthread.php?t=475

This Road Map through OFF was written in Phase 2, however most of the cheating still functions as written, the kosher information as well.

When Polovski spoke of the SPAD being a Boom and Zoom fighter. He was stating it's best form of combat. As such the SPAD is a poor choice, for the beginner. I would suggest the Sopwith Triplane, as it's very forgiving. :kilroy:
 
It's exactly the same. While the WW1 aircraft are slower, climb slower, and dive slower so do your adversary's everything that works with a WW2 aircraft will work with a WW1 aircraft. Think of fighting a D-VII with your Spad like fighting BF-109 with a P-47.

While the general theory of ACM for guns combat is the same across all eras, there are key differences in its application in different eras. This stems from each era's differences in 2 key ratios of airplane and gun performance. These ratios are only important to us "time-travelling" sim pilots who have to become proficient with WW1, WW2, Korea, etc., so don't expect to find them mentioned in ACM books. However, I find them essential to taking skills from 1 era and applying them to another.

The 1st ratio is that of effective guns range to the sustained turn radius of the typical fighter of the period in question:
  • WW1: turn radius much smaller than guns range
  • WW2: turn radius approximately equal to guns range
  • Korea: turn radius way bigger than guns range
The 2nd ratio is the typical zoom ability to the typical sustained turn performance of fighters of the era:
  • WW1: turn usually better than zoom
  • WW2: turn approximately equal to zoom
  • Korea: turn somewhat worse than zoom
So, suppose the bulk of your sim experience is in WW2 E-fighters. You know what works and what doesn't for that era, as in how big to make your loops and high yoyos, how far to extend before reversing, how far to follow a stallfighter in a turn, etc. Now you want to "time travel" to WW1. You'll quickly find that you can't fly the same way you did in WW2.

In WW2, the E-fighter can zoom up completely out of range of the stallfighter's guns, and can use the "rope a dope" in perfect safety, staying just tantalizingly out of reach until the enemy stalls out. And when the E-fighter needs to disengage, he can make a front-hemisphere pass on the enemy and be long gone before the enemy turns around. And it wasn't a problem to maintain the speed necessary to do all this even with the enemy bled down to low speed because the WW2 E-fighter usually had enough firepower to kill with a snapshot.

In WW1, OTOH, E-fighters have the same weak guns as everybody else so require the same sorts of fairly good shooting opportunities to kill. This means they can't fight effectively with as high a speed advantage over the target as in WW2. This, and their relatively anemic zoom abilities, mean they can't zoom up out of range directly above the target but have to rely more on horizontal extensions. But because the target's turn radius is much smaller than guns range, the E-fighter in WW1 has to worry about being shot in the back during the extension even after a front-hemisphere pass. Thus, horizontal extensions have to be made relatively longer in WW1 than in WW2 (compared to the turn radius of the target).

Thus, while the WW1 E-fighter is trying to accomplish the same general task as in WW2, he has to go about it in a rather different manner. And IMHO, it's harder in WW1 than in WW2, mostly because the WW1 E-fighter isn't packing 4x MG151/20s :).
 
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