• There seems to be an uptick in Political comments in recent months. Those of us who are long time members of the site know that Political and Religious content has been banned for years. Nothing has changed. Please leave all political and religious comments out of the forums.

    If you recently joined the forums you were not presented with this restriction in the terms of service. This was due to a conversion error when we went from vBulletin to Xenforo. We have updated our terms of service to reflect these corrections.

    Please note any post refering to a politician will be considered political even if it is intended to be humor. Our experience is these topics have a way of dividing the forums and causing deep resentment among members. It is a poison to the community. We appreciate compliance with the rules.

    The Staff of SOH

  • Server side Maintenance is done. We still have an update to the forum software to run but that one will have to wait for a better time.

A short editorial about flight sim developers (thoughts and contribution please)

Wow, this went off topic quick.:icon_lol:


An increase in quality will not stop consumers from complaining, and a stop to consumer complaining won't stop sensitive developers from getting their feelings hurt. You guys are right, noone should get bagged on all the time; but have you ever noticed that it's the same people who get all hurt about everything? People are way to sensitive here.

Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community, consumers and developers alike. First off, I took FSD's side in that whole rediculous altercation (if you can call it that). Second off, he didn't even say anything that bad. He said that their website was plain and old, and that their releases were weak and had boring screenshots. He also said that Milviz would be better served by another developer. He was jumped on by a few people, (whihc is par for the course) but is anyone here really ready to say that what happened was that big of a deal? I don't want any developer to leave this community; I just don't think anyone should lose sleep over diegomenendez.
 
Wow, this went off topic quick.:icon_lol:


An increase in quality will not stop consumers from complaining, and a stop to consumer complaining won't stop sensitive developers from getting their feelings hurt. You guys are right, noone should get bagged on all the time; but have you ever noticed that it's the same people who get all hurt about everything? People are way to sensitive here.

Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community, consumers and developers alike. First off, I took FSD's side in that whole rediculous altercation (if you can call it that). Second off, he didn't even say anything that bad. He said that their website was plain and old, and that their releases were weak and had boring screenshots. He also said that Milviz would be better served by another developer. He was jumped on by a few people, (whihc is par for the course) but is anyone here really ready to say that what happened was that big of a deal? I don't want any developer to leave this community; I just don't think anyone should lose sleep over diegomenendez.

Lets fly Man!!! lets fly...that is our hobby you know........your point has been taken and is now Kaput.......let´s fly Man....or Drive your Train!!!!!:isadizzy::isadizzy::isadizzy::gameoff:

Quote: " Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community,".....Ehem.....hummmm, to many We are not Mature!!!! we play with our computer!!!!! hummmmmm, ummmmmm, Let´s play Man!!!!!!! where are my toys!!!!!!!!! Mamma!!! Mamma Mia!!!!!!...................
 
Lets fly Man!!! lets fly...that is our hobby you know........your point has been taken and is now Kaput.......let´s fly Man....or Drive your Train!!!!!:isadizzy::isadizzy::isadizzy::gameoff:

Quote: " Everything needs to get put into a more mature perspective in this community,".....Ehem.....hummmm, to many We are not Mature!!!! we play with our computer!!!!! hummmmmm, ummmmmm, Let´s play Man!!!!!!! where are my toys!!!!!!!!! Mamma!!! Mamma Mia!!!!!!...................


:icon_lol::pop4:
 
Net profit for most "payware developers" would be around a few thousand dollars for the better selling titles, a lot less for the less so. And that might be over say two years.

To inject a "standards" board into the industry would also inject cost and time into the processes that would propel prices beyond what most of you could afford. $200 for an add-on and that would be a bargain.

What businessperson in their right mind would spend more dollars and time against such meagre returns? It's why we're all crazy and do it because we like simming.

I agree with Gera here, just fly and enjoy. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy anything. Buyer beware. That goes for plastic models as much as it does for 3D ones.:engel016:
 
I try to remember that these FS third party contributors ARE FS...even more than FS is FS... especially now that FS is in limbo.

be it freeware or payware, and between the two there are various levels of talent obviously as with any artistic or technical skill, such will always be the case - the important thing for us to respect is their willingness to do the work and make it available to us. After that its all about choices - we can either choose to acquire the work or pass on it. I think a good percentage of the criticism is less about the author and more about the ego of the critic.:kilroy:

a whole lot of defecation where we eat is bound to be counterproductive.
 
I see it as more than just a hobby when I attend the Avsim flight sim conventions. Maybe because Aces was so involved over the latter years.

I think the most I take out of every convention though is that behind these 'Payware' companies.... are real people... who do this out of their love of flying. I don't think I ever asked a question about a project that they were presenting... where they did not know the minute details of the scenery/aircraft they were attempting to represent.

LOL... I can tell you for sure that no one gets into the FS development industry to get rich!

If people got to meet these designers... then I think they would be more apt to be more human... we all know how anonymous the Internet can be. Just human nature...to see the person... and not the company.

SOH is really a lucky place as it has more designers interacting with the members than any other board I know.
Ok there may be more higher profile participation by one or a few developers at other boards. Here though the public and developers mesh very well normally and really the developers participate here more than just posting pics and offer comments and opinions in other threads.


A very nice niche we have here.
 
I've been thinking of what to say for the last couple days, so here it is. Of course this is all MY OPINION and does not represent any company I currently test for or have tested for... Who knows, I might even be wrong! That's part of the fun of discussion. :engel016:

As someone who is opinionated as I am (as you all know :icon_lol:), I really enjoy the opportunity to discuss things on forums. When I feel I need to add criticism of some sort, it always goes through my head that everyone here's going to flame me for what I say, if it is even slightly negative. That usually doesn't stop me, and I go on to post what is on my mind. I'll admit to going overboard occasionally, but I almost always go back and fix it, usually on a little more personal level like an instant messenger.

I am a free speech advocate; however, Sim-Outhouse, and almost every other forum on the internet are not- rightfully so. It is necessary to moderate what people say in a society where there's always someone that takes offense to every word that comes out of someones mouth. Thus, it really is important to read over what you type at least a couple times before you reply.

Diego said some pretty harsh things with little to no evidence or ideas to back up his claims. I believe the moderators took the correct actions in moving the threads out of the public eye and at least temporarily banning him. (I don't know the duration of the ban) Though Diego may be gone, the problem still exists. Obviously, as Robert and FSD have not returned. As for negativity in general, by signing up on a forum, you are opening yourself up to debates and arguments. If you post a screenshot or preview of a product, you should be expecting criticism. Don't be surprised if someone follows through with it and posts something negative about your product. Hopefully, they will also post what they think is wrong and how the developer could fix it, and won't do what Diego did.

The current system is probably going to be as good as it will get. We will have to rely on people learning from their mistakes and not repeating them again. It is important that people with constructive opinions, both positive and negative, are able to express them. Readers need to remember the limitations of forum communication. If people find something to be really offensive, it is possible they took it the wrong way or the original poster didn't get their point across the way they meant to. In the cases where neither one of these is true, and it is just blatant bashing (like Diego's case), moderators must decide what to do. There will always be a need for steady-headed moderators such as the ones we have here.

Case in point, read over what you wrote before you post it.

Another big point in this thread is quality control.

The best and cheapest way for developers to ensure a quality product is by having dedicated and experienced beta testers. The latest Carenado plane is a good example of where simple beta testing would have ensured a smoother release. A thoroughly tested aircraft is almost always of better quality. It is definitely more enjoyable for the end user. In fact that is the main reason I beta test, so people enjoy a quality product that is worth their money. A happy customer is one who will return.

I believe the customers should determine who is successful and who is not. The market is a powerful thing. Companies who produce consistent high quality products tend to be the most popular, at least in the FS community. Doing this isn't the easiest thing to do, especially when you can't please everyone 100% of the time.

Talent and time are the things that set apart the very popular developers from the lesser known, less successful ones. That is they have a lot of time to work on their products and complete them in a reasonable amount of time. Subject matter also plays a role. Some people will pay for quality regardless what it is, but I believe those people to be the minority. A Cessna (insert number here) will always sell better than an obscure WWII fighter-bomber. Selling boxes also increases sales considerably. Sim-outhouse is obviously more interested in military aircraft, but if you go to any other mainstream FS community forum, civilian aircraft rule hands down. Finally, great customer relations and support (forums, updates, etc.) are also crucial to the online community. Obviously, most flight simulator developers have their own forums and online support due to the computer and internet-based nature of our hobby.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could succeed and make a living from FS products, but that is not the reality. The most talented and resourceful make it to the top.

I suppose that's enough for now. Much of it is common sense. Recently that common sense hasn't been as common as it should have been. It is a shame developers have decided to leave because of what certain members of the community said. The fall of ACES, hacking/loss of several flight simulator websites, and the current economic situation have all impacted our hobby in a significant way. This is definitely a time where we need to stick together. :ernae:
 
I've been thinking of what to say for the last couple days, so here it is....

A whole lot of truth...

... The fall of ACES, hacking/loss of several flight simulator websites, and the current economic situation have all impacted our hobby in a significant way. This is definitely a time where we need to stick together. :ernae:

Amen:engel016:
 
The Development community is grateful for the constructive input that participation in forums provides them towards the goal of creating productions that are as close to perfect as the platform allows, as well the camaraderie of one’s peers and clients within the framework of a friendly environment is invaluable.
But there are times such as has recently occurred that demonstrate a need for guidelines in etiquette to be established to provide for constructive criticism to be differentiated from destructive behaviour and it is to that end a moratorium was established by many members of the development community regarding WIP threads at SOH.
I am grateful for the support demonstrated from the Dev’s in abiding this objective and its aims , as well the vast majority of the membership of SOH has been beyond question of great help with this by contributing a positive influence with their thoughts on the subject .
The moratorium is not permanent , a duration of two weeks was requested to establish that our position be taken seriously , that position being a program or sticky post that provides guidelines for what is allowed and what is not permitted to be posted , defamatory remarks are what are in most cases the cause of strife and in many cases are not going to fall under the banner of constructive criticism.
The service that the membership provides in vetting our productions is invaluable , as are the friendships that are established in forum threads and we are grateful for them , but the influence that negativity has on the ‘’Fun Factor’’ can outweigh the positive by a wide margin and make being elsewhere seem a more comfortable choice , we ask only that common courtesy be the rule of thumb, its what makes the world go round smoothly , and its lack is what causes the problems.
My thanks for your consideration and support in trying to achieve this goal .
C. Jodry
 
"we ask only that common courtesy be the rule of thumb..."

Certainly not too much to ask Chuck:applause:
 
While I agree with some concepts of what is being said, I still do not see the need for regulatory measures to be taken. Water always finds its own level. I strongly oppose any regulatory measures to what may feel is protecting developers. It is a step in the wrong direction for a free thought forum in my opinion. Where is the line crossed?

I say the solution is simple. If you put your work out for criticism, expect it. If people say inflamatory comments, the moderators spank them down or quell the situation, as they do, and have always done. Asking SOH to change how they deal with the problem only serves to place a proverbial cast on a small cut. It to me is over obtrusive, abusive and only serves to give a scene of resentment, further rifting the community.

I'm sorry, but I will again say I am far and away against any regulatory measures that are not already currently in place.

Let's just get out and fly damnit, and frankly I don't see where any developer(s) should be telling SOH how to run their forum, no matter the talent, respect and following.

I'm sorry, but this is just the way I feel.
 
I say the solution is simple. If you put your work out for criticism, expect it. If people say inflamatory comments, the moderators spank them down or quell the situation, as they do, and have always done. Asking SOH to change how they deal with the problem only serves to place a proverbial cast on a small cut. It to me is over obtrusive, abusive and only serves to give a scene of resentment, further rifting the community.

I'm sorry, but I will again say I am far and away against any regulatory measures that are not already currently in place.

Let's just get out and fly damnit, and frankly I don't see where any developer(s) should be telling SOH how to run their forum, no matter the talent, respect and following.

I'm sorry, but this is just the way I feel.
I do not read it that way
I do not believe anyone is asking this site or telling us
for that matter how to do things
as far as the staff are concerned.
I believe we try to be fair
now of course we are not reading everything
thats posted at the time of posting
we cannot be everywhere 24/7
thats why we have the report post button
that does get our attention.
we have excellent staff here
who do there best
just my personal opinion
H
 
Why does Sim-outhouse need to change their policies?

The staff at sim-outhouse handled the recent brouhaha rather well in my opinion. They removed the offensive posts and banned the member and pretty damn quickly too as I (like many others) never got to see what was originally posted. What more could they be expected to do? The only possible system to prevent such abuse in the future is that ALL posts must be submitted to the moderators who determine whether it gets posted or not. Not really that practical is it?

On another note Kiwikat's post says it all really. Developer's need customers (obviously) but customer's need developers. If we, as customers, constantly criticise developers who are probablly on making a couple of bucks an hour for their efforts then pretty soon developers will wonder why they bother and just walk away from FS. Not good for customers.
 
On another note Kiwikat's post says it all really. Developer's need customers (obviously) but customer's need developers. If we, as customers, constantly criticise developers who are probablly on making a couple of bucks an hour for their efforts then pretty soon developers will wonder why they bother and just walk away from FS. Not good for customers.

Thats quite frankly the truth of the situation. Only 3 things we can do.

#1, accept lower quality models from the smaller studio's (I dont want that)

#2, pay a lot more (You dont want that)

#3, we get more people interested in this hobby, or educate the millions of FSX users that there are forums like this, and 3rd party products.

None of the studio's have a budget to advertise, so we work 100% word-of-mouth. Thats why if we make a bad model, it dont sell.
 
What more could they be expected to do? The only possible system to prevent such abuse in the future is that ALL posts must be submitted to the moderators who determine whether it gets posted or not. Not really that practical is it?
not only not practical just plain stupid

None of the studio's have a budget to advertise, so we work 100% word-of-mouth. Thats why if we make a bad model, it dont sell.
that is correct but then we get back to the original problem one may think its bad another may not
opinions do vary:icon34:
dammed if ya do dammed if ya dont:isadizzy:
but i do believe in the end the truth shows its head
H
 
A bad product is called out for what it is. Its a risk, and one the dev's must accept like it or not. I in no way want to "hush up" bad reviews as long as they are legitimate. The biggest problem is people calling a product bad that's not even done or out yet. That's a complete disservice to the community and the developers.
 
I had a lengthy post started about the nature of the net and how certain online personalities should just be ignored, even when they're customers, due to their posting motivations. But in the end, it doesn't say it any better than Gabe and Tycho did.

Why there's no solution to this issue.
 
Another big point in this thread is quality control.

The best and cheapest way for developers to ensure a quality product is by having dedicated and experienced beta testers.

Easy in theory, but hard in practice. Good beta testers are gold dust! Over the years we've kept our beta teams very small, as experience has shown us that the more one takes on, in some ways the less feedback one gets that is useful.

Many testers start with good intentions but fall by the wayside very quickly. Or others just want a freebie and after a couple of sentences in their initial report - often derogatory because they haven't read the very carefully prepared briefing on the test programme - they are not seen or heard of again!

Beta testing is an acquired skill and requires an educated balance between unnecessary pedantry and casual appreciation, neither extremes of which are of any real use to a developer. But most of all it requires the kind of time, concentration and dedication that most testers simply do not possess. It also requires a good command of language and the ability to express findings in a succinct and careful way. Not everyone is capable of this, even with good intentions.

But even a well tested addon can let things through the net. Sometimes the most obvious things get through, usually because it is so basic that no-one thought to check it. In addition, some customers get quite focussed on attributes that are special to them (we had one customer who was almost outraged that we let through a trim tab that was barely 3 degrees out of alignment) and no beta tester should reasonably be blamed for missing such a pedantic point.

In the end it is the developer's responsibility to check the quality of his work.


Rob Young - RealAir
 
Back
Top