A Spring-less Joystick...Is It Possible?

B

burcham8

Charter Member
Guys,

I miss the old Microsoft Sidewinder II Force Feel stick. It didn't have any springs in it and, to my mind felt more like a real control stick than others.

Is it possible to take away the springs in a joystick? Has anyone tried it? If so, how do you do it?

Marc
 
I have the old FFB2 stick (the red trigger version)! I use it without the forces enabled and always have. It feels like an actual stick to me!

I'm sure there is a way to take out the springs on today's sticks
 
Back before mine finally died, I used it with forces enabled and could feel every thump on a grass runway, the difference in the stick between a J-3 and an F-27, and the hammering of guns when I flew in CFS2. MAN, I miss that.

Occasionally, you can find old Sidewinder IIs on the internet...just haven't found the courage to risk buying one "new in box!" :icon_lol:

Marc
 
I first thought of the ole force feedbacks when I saw this thread. It would be interesting to take the springs out and see what it would be like. But, in a real plane, note that the surfaces will pull a real joystick to center when the bird is all trued up and trimmed out properly. In the sim, you will not have that with a regular joystick, so you will constantly have to hold the joystick in zero zero position. Let go and your plane dives up and left or right, however which way the joystick flops over to. :S
 
"The ONLY way to fly"

As a retired Naval Aviator, the MS Force Feedback 2 flight stick is (truly) the only way to go. NO spring stick feels like it should. I bought my FFB (and later as spare) on e-bay.

The problem with the MS FFB sticks is not the stick, it's the [forcefeedback] paragraph, or lack of one, in the aircraft.cfg file. There has to be one, or the stick will have EXCEEDINGLY violent feedback forces. If you have a aircraft.cfg that uses the original MS [forcefeedback] paragraph, it too has values that are WAY too high. Microsoft was selling these sticks - so they wanted you to REALLY feel the effects (nothing as subtle as reality) - so they inserted high values into that paragraph. most developers still use those values (they have no idea what other values to use). Try this:

[forcefeedback]
gear_bump_nose_magnitude=2000
gear_bump_nose_direction=18000
gear_bump_nose_duration=250000
gear_bump_left_magnitude=3500
gear_bump_left_direction=35500
gear_bump_left_duration=250000
gear_bump_right_magnitude=3500
gear_bump_right_direction=500
gear_bump_right_duration=250000
ground_bumps_magnitude1=1300
ground_bumps_angle1=8900
ground_bumps_intercept1=3
ground_bumps_slope1=0.20
ground_bumps_magnitude2=500
ground_bumps_angle2=9100
ground_bumps_intercept2=0.075
ground_bumps_slope2=0.035
crash_magnitude1=10000
crash_direction1=1000
crash_magnitude2=10000
crash_direction2=9000
crash_period2=75000
crash_duration2=2500000
stick_shaker_magnitude=5000
stick_shaker_direction=0
stick_shaker_period=111111

Bill
 
I have the FFB2 that is 10 years old and still works great. The problem with the FFB2 is that it plays havoc with FBW aircraft. I found this out when I first purchased the VRS Superbug for FS9. Since then I use an X52 for all high performance aircraft.
 
Wings of Gold said:
As a retired Naval Aviator, the MS Force Feedback 2 flight stick is (truly) the only way to go. NO spring stick feels like it should. I bought my FFB (and later as spare) on e-bay.

The problem with the MS FFB sticks is not the stick, it's the [forcefeedback] paragraph, or lack of one, in the aircraft.cfg file. There has to be one, or the stick will have EXCEEDINGLY violent feedback forces. If you have a aircraft.cfg that uses the original MS [forcefeedback] paragraph, it too has values that are WAY too high. Microsoft was selling these sticks - so they wanted you to REALLY feel the effects (nothing as subtle as reality) - so they inserted high values into that paragraph. most developers still use those values (they have no idea what other values to use). Try this:

[forcefeedback]
gear_bump_nose_magnitude=2000
gear_bump_nose_direction=18000
gear_bump_nose_duration=250000
gear_bump_left_magnitude=3500
gear_bump_left_direction=35500
gear_bump_left_duration=250000
gear_bump_right_magnitude=3500
gear_bump_right_direction=500
gear_bump_right_duration=250000
ground_bumps_magnitude1=1300
ground_bumps_angle1=8900
ground_bumps_intercept1=3
ground_bumps_slope1=0.20
ground_bumps_magnitude2=500
ground_bumps_angle2=9100
ground_bumps_intercept2=0.075
ground_bumps_slope2=0.035
crash_magnitude1=10000
crash_direction1=1000
crash_magnitude2=10000
crash_direction2=9000
crash_period2=75000
crash_duration2=2500000
stick_shaker_magnitude=5000
stick_shaker_direction=0
stick_shaker_period=111111

Bill
Click to expand...

I'd be inclined to agree!

The MSFF2 is a great stick and mine is still going strong after 10 years and a lot of use. The only thing that needs changing are a few of the most used buttons which you can get cheaply online.

As Bill points out, the FF section in the Aircraft CFG usually has too strong a forces for gear retraction and ground bumps, but these can easily be tuned.

And don't forget section 320 of the .air file for setting up/tuning the FF feedback and feel of the control surfaces.

I must admit, if for any reason I've disabled FF and flown an aircraft in FS, I do notice how much properly set up FF improves how an aircraft feels and gives a much better impression of how it handles. But then I've never used a non FF spring stick in it for comparison.

Granted, with FF, you're never going to simulate properly a 50lb stick force on the ailerons for example, but for a desktop sim, the MSFF2, FSX, and properly set up FF give you a much better experience IMHO.

Now, if only someone did some FF rudder pedals!

Cheers

Paul
 
I still have the old FFB stick somewhere. My recollection was that the cables and motors provided a small amount of friction to keep it from falling over. I used it for flying helicopters with force off and it closely replicated that experience. However many aircraft with hydraulic controls used a fairly simple spring system similar to what we find in most joysticks, with tension away from center provided by biasing the springs, to provide trim. The old CH sticks used this system to provide a trim independent of a switchology. Some real aircraft, such as the F9F Panther had an irritating breakout force on the controls, which made formation flying more challenging. Currently I travel with a Hall Effect Thrustmaster, which though having a decently strong spring, is accurate enough for chopper flying. Some sticks with a coil wound around the shaft such as Saitek can have the spring force reduced by shortening or tie wrapping the spring.

T
 
Wings of Gold said:
. Most developers still use those values (they have no idea what other values to use).
Click to expand...

Bill, the SDK gives a very good description of what all the values represent and it wouldn't take to long to make adjustments to the FFB section. Since there are so few FFB sticks out there I think most developers just don't bother plus if you are developing and don't have a FFB there is absolutely nothing you can do to test that section. I think if the people with FFB sticks should read the SDK and make the adjustments for their favorite models then share them here it would a be a nice addition to the SOH download section.
 
No discussion of FFB in FSX is complete without mentioning the FSForce addon. I haven't used my Sidewinder II in a while, but back when I did, the only way I could deal with FSX's FF was to switch it off and use FSForce instead. The feeling is much better, and more configurable. Elevator trimming is a delight with it too, as it works the way you actually expect trim to work, but never get in FS.
 
X65F doesn't have springs.It doesn't move at all.Best thing of all is there's no mechanical function to go wonky...;)
 
Maybe I missed something... I have a two year old Logitech FFB stick with no springs. Are you guys saying FFB sticks no longer exist? Or just that Microsoft no longer builds theirs...
 
Ferry_vO said:
Here's an awesome hydraulic operated ffb stick; I tried it two years ago and was pleasantly surprised, but it's way too expensive for me.

http://www.paccus.com/
Click to expand...


I just discovered this stick the other day while looking for a modern FF stick. I was sad to see it hasn't made it to market yet. Do you know what they were originally asking for it? I assumed it would be expensive.

I did receive an email from them the other day after I inquired about it:

Hello,

thanks for the inquiry. Currently the Hawk as shown on the site for consumers is on hold. There were too many issues during production. This drove the price up to an unacceptable level. At the moment we first focus on getting an industrial stick ready. We will update the site when this is done. In august we start presenting the new industrial stick. We plan to use the experience and income to continue working on an affordable consumer stick in the future. All input and comments are welcome at this stage.

kind regards,
the Paccus team,
Bart
 
The inexpensive Thrustmaster Hotas X has adjustable spring tension on a knob underneath. You can back it off to near nothing if you wish.
 
A must have for any force feedback owners is FS Force. The program simulates a lot of cool effects such as run up vibrations, gear buffeting, and a very nice trim simulation that is much more realistic than anything else I've seen to date. For the small price, it's well worth the investment.

http://www.fs-force.com
 
CodyValkyrie said:
A must have for any force feedback owners is FS Force. The program simulates a lot of cool effects such as run up vibrations, gear buffeting, and a very nice trim simulation that is much more realistic than anything else I've seen to date. For the small price, it's well worth the investment.

http://www.fs-force.com
Click to expand...
I beta tested for him YEARS ago. Used my MSFF2 with FSForce until it went up in smoke a year ago. :-(

CK
 
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