Airshows today

[Jaxon]

Hi all,

Together with my nearly 3 year old daughter I had a wonderful nice sunday at the "Hamburg Airport days" today.
Actually most of the attractions were located on the tarmac in front of the hangars of Lufthansa Technik: http://www.airport-days-hamburg.de/de/

There were quite a lot of interesting planes to see. The for me unknown Dutch CATALINA was actually the reason to go there, I saw her yesterday in sky behind my home.

During the day, the french NORATLAS made an impressive airshow - not really acrobatic, but a few spectacular turns here and there and some flybys just for the show...
(acrobatics are completely forbidden in Germany after the Ramstein desaster).
Hamburg Airport on the other side of the field was operating more or less normally the whole day. Probably because of that, "airshow time" was very limited, because the normal traffic had to wait.
I have seen more display stuff at other events before and missed it somehow, while I was there. Soo many intersting aircraft, but most of them just on the ground!

Anyway, it was a really great day for both of us until a few minutes ago... when I heard in the news about the fatal crash of a Hawker Hunter at Shoreham Air Show in the UK!

Suddenly I missed nothing at all. Acrobatics are nothing, that should be performed over or near ANY crowd of people - especially with vintage planes, no matter how well they are maintained.

My condolences to everyone who lost someone in Shoreham today.

 

[Rami]

Reply...

Jaxon,

Thank you for saying something about this. My condolences as well.

 

[Shessi]

Hi Jaxon,
Glad you had a good time at the Hamburg airshow, it's great when you see ac you weren't expecting or you thought none were still flying!

And yes very sad about the Shoreham crash. Just to clear things up, the Hunter unfortunately crashed into static cars queuing on a main road, waiting at traffic lights and a junction, about 1-2Kms from the airfield. So no aerobatics over the airfield or crowd. The same would have been in Fuhlsbüttel if something had happened at the Hamburg airshow.

Conjecture I know, unless there's a fault with this ac, then 'low and slow is a no no' anywhere in a fast jet.

Cheers

Shessi

 

[Jaxon]

Shessi, you are right, but the next day I read somwhere on the net the quote:

Red Arrows refuse to fly at the Shoreham airshow each year because 'there is nowhere to put a plane down without killing someone'.

And that is exactly my point.

I love planes - you all know that. I also love them loud and fast and spectacular. But a dense setteled area or a crowded place at a normally empty airfield is the wrong place to do that, and the even Red Arrows know that.

In this Hunter accident, I personaly think, the plane had a flameout, engine stall or whatever - and the very experienced pilot had realizied that quite early and might have catched the plane again or bailed out. Even with this trouble during the looping, the fatal end would not have happend, if he had performed the whole display at more altitude or for example - over the sea right next (!) to Shoreham.

There are so many high security standards in the aviation business, but especially at airshows these are broken again and again even by professionals.
The result is, that in the last decade every year a few historically very valuable planes crash at these events flown by pilots, that maybe were once used to fly the types regularly - but mostly are retired now and don`t have the flying experience on these types, the physical fitness and maybe not the reactions anymore. Its so sad about the aircraft, even worther is the loss of live(s).

For example, I read somewhere, that even active German Luftwaffe Pilots are denied to fly in close formation nowadays, because they don`t have the skills for that due to lack of training (too few flying hours, too expensive).
​

 

[Shessi]

Jaxon,

It's getting the balance right, making an airshow attractive enough to encourage people to attend and spend money, and staying safe. I know safety always come first, but the definition of what that safety means is the question, and it will now be tightened again, rightly so.

Shoreham is an odd place, it's close to the sea but not directly on the coast, so a display over the sea would not be really watchable, but as you say, ultimately safe, and that may be what will have to happen.

Shoreham had another fatal Hurricane crash in 2007, pilot error (pilot killed). And Shoreham is a small, tight airfield, so may be it does push pilots (too far?) that are not permanent/experienced display pilots? I didn't know about the Red Arrows, but that gives a strong indication as to the limitations of the area.

We're lucky in the UK as having a huge coastline, and have a lot of airshows on the coast, Yarmouth (where the Harrier went in!), Southend, Margate, Southampton, Bournmouth, Cardiff, Southport etc. If that was the world standard then unfortunately somewhere like Germany would have few airshows.

Re-crash, we'll see, the RR Avon was one of the most reliable jet engines produced and not known for any such issues. Of course something may have failed and caused the crash. In a way I hope it was such a failure which caused the crash, because if it was pilot error (which personally, at this stage, I think it is), then the death of the 11 people, could have been avoided. Which would be incredibly sad.

Shessi

 

[kelticheart]

A very sad event

Jaxon and Shessi,

all of this brings to my memory the horrendous collision among three planes of the Freccie Tricolori (Tricolour Arrows) Italian Air Force aerobatic team at Ramstein airbase on August 28th, 1988, during the Flugtag '88.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_sZwJQy9ic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX6io7WD0zg

While two planes crashed on the runway, the third plummeted on the audience, killing 67 people and wounding another 346.

Those were Macchi MB339 jet planes in mint conditions, painstakingly maintained to the last bolt and flown by Italian Top Gun pilots. Freccie Tricolori fly and practice aerobatic team manoeuvres almost every day, it's the only Italian Air Force unit were no one discusses budget issues like saving money.
Selections among Italian Air Force experienced pilots to fly with Freccie Tricolori are the toughest any Italian military pilot faces. Several thousands of logged flight hours are required to be eligible. Very, very few make it and pilots rotation is very frequent to compensate for the heavy physical stress of aerobatic jet flying.

Ltnt. Col. Nutarelli, the soloist pilot who caused the accident by executing the "Cardioid" (a heart shape executed by two planes criss-crossed by a soloist) manoeuvre few seconds too early, had performed the same exact aerobatic 70 times before the accident occurred. Yet, he crossed too early his two team mates flight path and could not avoid the ensuing collision. All three pilots did not survive the crash.

It was a 100% pilot's error, the many films, shot during the team performance, showed the desperate attempt of the pilot to pull up the very last second before impact. No one could have ever dreamed of a silly timing error caused by a pilot of such top class and experience. This horrible accident caused a radical change in safety rules during airshows, no pilot/team is allowed to fly over audiences or too low anymore since then.
During the few Freccie Tricolori shows I could attend here in Italy, since the Ramstein crash, I witnessed how far away from audiences, buildings and settled areas aerobatic manoeuvres were performed.

All of the above to explain why I feel the criticism shouted by TV networks and newspapers last Saturday about old planes and amateurish pilots is exaggerate and out of place.

Sadly, the severe airshow rules issued after Ramstein Flugtag '88 did not help at Shoreham on last Saturday. When mechanical failures or bad weather do not play roles in airplane accidents, human errors cause them. Human limitations play also a key role. On the Daily Telegraph someone wrote that perhaps the Hunter pilot pulled too many G's during the loop and fainted just long enough to become unable to end the manoeuvre at a safe altitude.

Flying airplanes has always been and always will be a life-threatening, risky business. When I step into an airliner I am very much aware of it, way more than the average passenger, because I know very well the dynamics of flight. This year has been very bad in terms of airplane accidents.

Earth gravity cannot be controlled, anything that goes up must come down, no one can change that. This doesn't affect a bit my love for aircraft and flight, I agree 100% with those who declare that vintage airplanes belong more to the sky than a musem hall.

Let me share with you my condolences and prayers to the families of the Shoreham crash victims.

KH

 

[kelticheart]

Here, I just found another video of a very recent, last August 16th, Freccie Tricolori performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg4SPYiVlzo

The place is Peschiera del Garda, on the southern shore of lake Garda.

It shows very well how far and how high they fly from the audience. All of the performance takes place over the water of the lake.

Cheers!
KH

 

[Shessi]

Kelti,
Funny you should mention the Tricolori. I was at the Culdrose airshow in July, and I've got to admit they were very impressive, beautiful to watch. And as you say they were quite high in all their routines. The Hunter was also there, and although a good routine was a lot lower in overall height, but again good to watch. Later I managed to talk to one of the young Tricolori pilote, who was very friendly and professional.

Being Culdrose it's a huge airfield near the sea, and so none of the routines took them over the main roads or any crowds etc. Ramstein, was that not only was it pilot error, the major reason for such carnage, as you say, was that the routine took them towards the spectators, so when it went horribly wrong there was only one place they were going to crash into.

I think Jaxon mentioning about the Red Arrows refusing to fly there speaks volumes, and Shoreham airfield being a small and therefore creating a tight/narrow aerobatic display area, which then did not fit with as easily with a fast jet routine, which cut the safety margins, and this forced him and/or with an error, to lose inertia and run out of sky, may be? We'll see.......

Shessi

 

[Jaxon]

O wow, I have been to lake garda at least 6 times and know it quite well. Nice spot for an airshow!
--

Unfortunately here is just another example of what we talked about just a week before.
A crash of a Pitts Special flown by a professional airliner pilot, performing acrobatics at a small airshow.

He made some very spectacular spins, but seems to have needed a second too much for orientation.
Fortunatley he was able to get it away from the crowd and he had enough empty space below him. This could have led to a much worser outcome easily!

http://kaernten.orf.at/news/stories/2729019/

The more and more I learn about these shows, I think I will keep away in future - especially with my kids.

 

[SPman]

You wouldn't like NZ shows then..........lots of low down stuff...although...I can't recall any loops from a low level entry, which seems to catch out many a pilot, and everything is carried out parallel to the crowd line. Also, of course, there's usually plenty of vacant land adjoining......