Amelia Earhart news....

[tigisfat]

Gentlemen, please excuse my humor.:salute:

I don't know enough about her to judge myself, but I've heard many attacks on her character over the years. The two that readily come to mind are the claims of her affair with Noonan, that even extended to a suggestion that the two eloped together (one of many explanations for her dissappearance I've heard), and I've also heard she displayed poor airmanship and general flying skills. What the truth is, I don't know, but I figured you all had heard the same at one point or another, so I didn't think a joke about the accused relationship was too far off the beaten path.

 

[jhefner]

Ken;

Just wondering: are the waves below you any help in determining the direction and speed of the wind; or could it be different at higher altitudes?

-James

 

[PRB]

Those drift meters could be used at sea, if there were distinct waves to watch. More difficult than using a nice straight road perhaps, but doable. They did it in WW-II.

 

[HighGround22]

. . . It worked fairly well when tracing over easily determined ground reference points, ideally a straight road or long furrowed farm field. Over the ocean it was practically worthless. . . .

Well, I recall using it over the ocean, back in the Fifties/Sixties.

We'd be sent out from the carrier to cover an area of open ocean for six hours, on average. Every hour or so, we'd "do a wind" with the drift meter. We'd fly steady and take a drift reading; alter 60 degrees port and do another; alter 120 degrees to starboard (60 from the original hdg) and do the last one before resuming course.

We'd plot the drift lines on an E6B (hand-held analog) computer, which gave us a "cocked hat" -- a (hopefully small) triangle that gave us an indication of the wind speed and direction. We'd apply that to the next hour of patrolling, and so-forth. Worked a treat, ack-shully, and far from worthless.

While I'm babbling, the other method we'd use was the "smoke wind". We'd note the heading and fire the "Retro" (a pneumatic "gun" that fired a smoke marker rearward at the same speed we were flying forward, thus effectively dropping it straight down), and fly a steady-rate circle. When we were back to the original heading, we'd note the elapsed time and fire another smoke from the Retro. Smoke #1 to smoke #2 gave wind direction; crunching the time gave windspeed. Shazam!

Years later, I was flying over the saltchuck in much bigger, land-based aerodynes with GPS. Much more relaxing!

 

[HighGround22]

.
And just by the bye, I've always wondered how much of a part Noonan's boozing had to play in their demise. It's been a while since I last did any detailed reading, but it seems to me that Amelia indicated, in a "coded" telegram, that her navigator was back on the bottle, just before the last leg or two. I seem to recall that she was urged to pack it in, but demurred.

I know, I know,nil nisi bonum, and all that, but nevertheless, it's always remained a bit of a nagging doubt in my mind.

 

[tigisfat]

.
And just by the bye, I've always wondered how much of a part Noonan's boozing had to play in their demise. It's been a while since I last did any detailed reading, but it seems to me that Amelia indicated, in a "coded" telegram, that her navigator was back on the bottle, just before the last leg or two. I seem to recall that she was urged to pack it in, but demurred.

I know, I know,nil nisi bonum, and all that, but nevertheless, it's always remained a bit of a nagging doubt in my mind.

I've heard so many accounts of derogatory information about her whole operation that I dont know which ones to pay creedence to. I was surprised that Lionheart hadn't heard anything bad about her before. It seems all I hear is people putting her down.

I've heard that her departure had to be delayed because she wrecked her first around-the-world aircraft leaving Oakland. The story says that they had to ship her a new one fast, away from the prying eyes of the media.

 

[Ken Stallings]

Tigisfat,

I held my tongue during your first ill considered remark. Now, despite staff politely advising you this wasn't the sort of thing appreciated, you now go much further off the reservation with all these negative remarks about two long since dead people!

By all FACTUAL accounts I have read, she was very happily married for many years. Just because Fred Noonan was a man doesn't mean people should engage in pointless and ill-considered speculation about adultery! The unavoidable fact is she's no longer alive to refute these baseless and scandalous charges.

I should think we should have enough respect for the dead to avoid this.

Ken

 

[Ken Stallings]

Ken;

Just wondering: are the waves below you any help in determining the direction and speed of the wind; or could it be different at higher altitudes?

-James

It depends. Waves are determined by two forces -- currents and winds. The whitecaps are largely produced by winds, but the swells are largely determined by currents.

Pressure and celestial were the primary means that navigators confirmed the accuracy of the DR's.

I find the discussions about drift meters fascinating, however! I did read that passage with considerable interest.

Cheers,

Ken

 

[Ken Stallings]

Well, I recall using it over the ocean, back in the Fifties/Sixties.

We'd be sent out from the carrier to cover an area of open ocean for six hours, on average. Every hour or so, we'd "do a wind" with the drift meter. We'd fly steady and take a drift reading; alter 60 degrees port and do another; alter 120 degrees to starboard (60 from the original hdg) and do the last one before resuming course.

We'd plot the drift lines on an E6B (hand-held analog) computer, which gave us a "cocked hat" -- a (hopefully small) triangle that gave us an indication of the wind speed and direction. We'd apply that to the next hour of patrolling, and so-forth. Worked a treat, ack-shully, and far from worthless.

While I'm babbling, the other method we'd use was the "smoke wind". We'd note the heading and fire the "Retro" (a pneumatic "gun" that fired a smoke marker rearward at the same speed we were flying forward, thus effectively dropping it straight down), and fly a steady-rate circle. When we were back to the original heading, we'd note the elapsed time and fire another smoke from the Retro. Smoke #1 to smoke #2 gave wind direction; crunching the time gave windspeed. Shazam!

Years later, I was flying over the saltchuck in much bigger, land-based aerodynes with GPS. Much more relaxing!

I guess the question I have is how did you determine the drift line. On land it required measuring the angular deflection over a known straight line. Obviously you could use whitecaps and swells, but as I pointed out those are as much a byproduct of currents as winds. It could be very misleading information.

The smoke markers were used back in my brief time in HC-130's. However, we just dropped one smoke marker and gauged the direction of the wind. Obviously, to fire two you had to hold a constant rate turn using the turn-bank indicator and this would cause the wind to drift you a specific heading and distance off your location on the first smoke drop. I have to say this is a very ingenious method! I did not know you folks did that. First I have heard it written anywhere! Appreciate that insight very, very much!

Cheers,

Ken

 

[Ken Stallings]

.
And just by the bye, I've always wondered how much of a part Noonan's boozing had to play in their demise. It's been a while since I last did any detailed reading, but it seems to me that Amelia indicated, in a "coded" telegram, that her navigator was back on the bottle, just before the last leg or two. I seem to recall that she was urged to pack it in, but demurred.

I know, I know,nil nisi bonum, and all that, but nevertheless, it's always remained a bit of a nagging doubt in my mind.

Rather than quote Latin, we should simply quote good sources to refute the claim.

Here is a good one:

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/forum/FAQs/noonan.htm

Fred Noonan was promoted to Master Navigator at Pan Am, which certified him as one of the best navigators in the world during his era. He left Pan Am voluntarily after working for them for seven years. During the 1930's most men consumed alcohol, but no objective sources assert that Noonan was an alcoholic. Moreover, all eye witnesses confirm that Noonan was in good physical condition when he boarded the ill-fated flight with Earhardt.

In fact, the only unusual occurence on the second attempt to takeoff from Lae is that videotape seems to indicate that the lower loop antenna was blown off the aircraft. If true, this means the ADF would not work to locate her final bearing to Howland Island. That being the case, it points out why despite being in radio range, she was unable to guide in on a bearing for the landing.

BTW: I shortchanged the distance. The leg was 2,200 miles! That's a very long distance folks! Do some math and determine how a simple 30 knot difference in winds can affect such a distance.

Ken

 

[casey jones]

Was She Captured By The Japanese?

I still read stories and interviews by people who were on Sapan in 1937 that she was taken aboard a Japaneses ship. A Japanese officer testified that he was a doctor then and was brought to the ship to attend to the injuries of a white woman and white man, he said he saw a twin engine plane on the back of the ship with part of its wing broken.


Cheers

Casey:salute:

 

[Lionheart]

I have heard alot on this also. I heard that they found a remnant of a box, in fairly good condition, like a radio or battery box with a serial number on it that corresponded with that of the airframe of the Electra. Thats some pretty strong evidence.

 

[Ken Stallings]

I think the leading theories are that they ditched and then three various things happened.

1. They were captured by the Japanese, who believing they were spies and realizing if anything was released publicly, the United States would expect safe return, they were quietly killed and their bodies discarded so they would never be found. The US government, assuming Earhart was on some sort of round-the-world flight that happened to provide an option for very limited surveillance of Japanese areas, would be equally desirous of avoid the incriminating possibility that they helped get her killed, decided not to press the issue with Japan.

2. They successfully ditched and were marooned on a small island, never found, starved to death, and still have their bones lying wherever they fell.

3. The ditching was unsuccessful and the plane's wreckage lies at the deep with their bodies trapped inside and likely never to be seen, much less recovered.

Of these three likely outcomes, only one carries any realistic chance of discovery. As gristly as this option is, it is the only way we will ever recover their bodies.

I think any of these three outcomes are as likely as the other. Speculation claims anecdotal evidence of Japanese capture, but I'm thinking it is plausible that anyone actually in the know was sworn to secrecy, and carried that secret to their graves to avoid further public recrimination after the war ended, not to mention an almost certain chance of a war crimes trial if they spoke about it.

If you survived the war and had the option to stay quiet and get on with rebuilding your life in a war torn nation, or speaking and putting yourself at the mercy of the victorious allies with news your military murdered one of the greatest aviators in human history, covered it up for many years, and did so before your two nations were at war -- well, what would you do!

Hence why it's entirely likely that could have happened.

Ken

 

[PRB]

Well, they were heard by the Itasca, and with a strong signal, meaning they were close, before they dissapeared, so the most likely scenario is that they are at the bottom of the sea near Howland Island someplace.

But then there is this:

http://www.electranewbritain.com/

 

[tigisfat]

I still read stories and interviews by people who were on Sapan in 1937 that she was taken aboard a Japaneses ship. A Japanese officer testified that he was a doctor then and was brought to the ship to attend to the injuries of a white woman and white man, he said he saw a twin engine plane on the back of the ship with part of its wing broken.


Cheers

Casey:salute:

I wonder if the defection theory I mentioned I heard is related to those accounts.