An observation...

Rami

Rami

Administrator
Staff member
To CFS2 fliers,

First off, let me stress that this is not directed at all CFS2 users, but I have noticed a downward trend in the CFS2 forum which I feel needs addressing.

For some developers out there, we feel that there has been a significant decline in the amount of appreciation expressed when a new item is released.

Particularly for those who design missions and campaigns, and especially those that are historically-based, (I'm not just referring to myself here, I'm also including other developers who may back me on this if they wish) there is a significant amount of research which goes into constructing these projects, and most of us have jobs and children, which means that we have only limited time to work on our beloved hobby.

Given those facts, it's understandable that some of us get frustrated when we get very little feedback for other CFS2 members. Please note that I'm not just referring to "atta boy" messages, I'm also talking about constructive criticism...

"Hey, I really like that mission where you did..."

"The mission is good, but what if you did..."

It makes it kind of hard to know what campaigns or missions to do if you don't offer suggestions and ideas on what it is you want to fly. Frankly, it also makes it hard for developers to get motivated to do these products, considering that they're freeware, if we don't get occasional praise for our work.

Now mind you, I'm not suggesting that members erect bronze statues and bow down chanting "Hail Caesar," but it seems that a lot of people download these products, from ships and repaints to aircraft and campaigns/missions, and often, particularly for those who dabble in mission building, the efforts seem to be answered only with silence and the click of a mouse.

Again, this is not addressed specifically to anyone in particular. There are several people who DO respond, but it seems to be the same core of people. These are the people who often end up becoming beta testers, because they offer constructive criticism and above all, feedback.

Thanks for listening,
 
Rami,

I've been saying this for years. As you can see there are so many people that spoke up in this thread. 133 hits and I'm the only one to respond. That tells me a lot.

Here's a PRIME EXAMPLE of what Rami is talking about...

Everyone begged for years for the Defense of Australia to be redone. Rami redid it and added missions to it to make it 31 missions instead of the 14 missions (RAAF side) in the original. A couple of people said thank you but no one said they enjoyed it or if they liked the new missions added to it or any missions.

There is still a lot of missions and campaigns that can be done in New Guinea, 1943 Carrier ops, 1945 Carrier ops, the MTO. and the ETO. If you the community don't give your support they may not get done. Think about it, it's in your BALLPARK. If they don't get done, you only have yourself to blame.

Talon
 
Well said Bros Talon and Rami. I've had little to no praise or comments/feedback for the few missions, sceneries and mini-campaigns I've done, despite the fact that they've been downloaded quite a few times.

True, I only built them for my own enjoyment and decided to share as an afterthought but it would be nice to know what others think of them.

Cheers to you all :salute:
 
Beleive me, I really respect anyone who has added to this sim. I have just had the nerve to look at missions that the great builders have done. (Changed the oiltank to oiltank1, in Talon's Leyte)

I was lucky enough to "test" items for a couple of guys. I warned both of them that I was hardly qualified to do this kind of thing. Still, they let me "help". I don't feel I am worthy of being a tester yet. I realize that you guys put a lot of time and effort into your work. As a junior cfs2er, I am always thankful for and amazed at what you guys have produced. :salute: :salute: :salute:
 
Reply...

Mariereid,

It's appreciated, you're welcome.

But as I said, this is more directed at the people who use, but do not pause to give thanks, discuss their favorites, or offer ideas and suggestions. This even includes discussing something that doesn't work or work that well, at least then a solution can be worked on.
 
Rami, maybe you are right. I myself am very thankful to all you that made all that marvelous stuff for CFS2. But sometimes is true that I forget to thank the work from other people. Mea culpa.

Trasno
 
trasno said:
Rami, maybe you are right. I myself am very thankful to all you that made all that marvelous stuff for CFS2. But sometimes is true that I forget to thank the work from other people. Mea culpa.

Trasno
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Trasno,

Not a problem. Thank you for posting! :wavey:
 
I think also many times the lack of thanks yous and criticism- the latter often much more exasperating than the former- is because many folks don't feel comfortable bringing up a problem- particularly if all they see is others whom they may perceive to be more experienced lavishing nothing but praise. They think any problem they may be experiencing is an "operator" problem and would rather just remain silent about it.

And intended thank yous just kinda get lost along with new years resolutions.

Not saying that there aren't some hands full of "gimmes" and mouths full of "much obliged" out there. There are. That's the nice thing though about being freeware designers- we can comfortably ignore those types.

BTW- I am a bit of an offender when it comes to not praising the work of others- particularly when it comes to missions and campaigns. I just don't seem to fly them any more so I never test and evaluate them. Now days about the only thing I grab when they come out are new planes, new ships and new scenery object packs. However, add on missions and campaigns are what got me hooked on CFS2. In fact a desire to recreate missions from Eric Hammell's "... Aces Speak" series- invariably referencing airfields that didn't exist in CFS2- is what inspired me to start making scenery.
 
MaskRider said:
I think also many times the lack of thanks yous and criticism- the latter often much more exasperating than the former- is because many folks don't feel comfortable bringing up a problem- particularly if all they see is other, perhaps more experienced people lavishing nothing but praise. They think any problems they may be experiencing is on their end and would rather just remain silent about it.

And intended thank yous just kinda get lost along with new years resolutions.

Not saying that there aren't some hands full of "gimmes" and mouths full of "much obliged" out there. There are. That's the nice thing though about being freeware designers- we can comfortably ignore those types.

BTW- I am a bit of an offender when it comes to not praising the work of others- particularly when it comes to missions and campaigns. I just don't seem to fly them any more so I never test and evaluate them. Now days about the only thing I grab when they come out are new planes, new ships and new scenery object packs. However, add on missions and campaigns are what got me hooked on CFS2 and what inspired me to start making scenery.
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MaskRider,

Your point is well taken about being gun-shy about criticism, I can understand that. But more to your second point, I see people developing aircraft, scenery, and library objects, and start getting ideas on how to use them. It's a classic case of "one hand washes the other."

I feel as a mission and campaign designer that it's my job to USE the stuff that people like you, Achim, and the other scenery, aircraft, and object designers create and incorporate them in new missions and campaigns that can best use them. That's the whole reason why you build them in the first place, isn't it?

So I can also understand why developers sometimes stay on the sidelines, they're busy with their own work.
 
Rami said:
feel as a mission and campaign designer that it's my job to USE the stuff that people like you, Achim, and the other scenery, aircraft, and object designers create and incorporate them in new missions and campaigns that can best use them. That's the whole reason why you build them in the first place, isn't it?
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Absolutely. While we may hold forth that we do what we feel like doing and if it turns out that others may find a use for our work- well that's fine but a matter of supreme indifference to us- we don't really mean it. Its always a kick when you see a screen shot posted from some one who has been able to incorporate what you have done into their project- or who is just having fun with it.
 
MaskRider said:
Absolutely. While we may hold forth that we do what we feel like doing and if it turns out that others may find a use for our work- well that's fine but a matter of supreme indifference to us- we don't really mean it. Its always a kick when you see a screen shot posted from some one who has been able to incorporate what you have done into their project- or who is just having fun with it.
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Amen - Those who download and use - a little thanks, praise, input, or a screenshot means a great deal when so much time and effort is expended on these projects, trust me, even the simplest are a tremendous amount of work. That is the only reward a freeware developer gets.

I think in the final analysis, we need to do what we want to do, what brings us enjoyment, and if someone else enjoys our work and even thanks us for it, so much the better. But doing these things in the hope of receiveng praise is chasing the proverbial carrot on a stick. Just MHO.
 
Ghostrider said:
Amen - Those who download and use - a little thanks, praise, input, or a screenshot means a great deal when so much time and effort is expended on these projects, trust me, even the simplest are a tremendous amount of work. That is the only reward a freeware developer gets.

I think in the final analysis, we need to do what we want to do, what brings us enjoyment, and if someone else enjoys our work and even thanks us for it, so much the better. But doing these things in the hope of receiveng praise is chasing the proverbial carrot on a stick. Just MHO.
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You got that right GR - like MR I don't seem to do much Mission Flying either (too busy tinkering)
- and I'm not always first in line to say "thanks" - so I'll say it now - Thanks to everybody who contributes, I really appreciate your efforts

I think most of us do what we do for ourselves really, and if other folks take what you do without a word of thanks, or any comment, good or bad, that goes with the territory ..............

..........although sometimes I think, "Why do I bother ?"

.....but hey, nobody likes a winger, so I'll leave it there........

Roger & out

Jim
 
Guys, I have to agree with Ghost Rider here.
I get a kick out of building historically accurate missions/campaigns. I build them for me. Selfish, I know, but let's be real here. This is my hobby. The real kicker is that I get to learn from some real masters, which I am not yet, then share my work with others.

My reward comes when I look and see how many downloads of my work there have been.

It tells me that there are more CFS2ers out here than just those that post regularly here on the Outhouse.

Yes, I enjoy getting a thanks, who doesn't? But as Ghosty has stated, that is not the reason we do it.

And, in case I have missed saying it publicly, I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY appreciate MaskRider, Achim, SopwithC, FDG crew, Akemi, Rami, Jagd, Lawdog, Obio, Talon, and many, many others on here, Netwings, and simviation for all of their work and contributions to IMO, the best flight sim available to date. Without you guys, nnone of what we all enjoy would even be possible.

As I told Rami in a PM before I saw this thread, I feel bad that I have not had the time over the last few months to even test his Frantic missions as he sent them to me. They are all still in zips on my HD in my new campaign folders. Yet, the final campaign is done and uploaded. I cannot tell you all how instrumental Rami was for my Tuskegee Airmen Campaigns. Without him and those I mentioned above, none of the TA campaigns would have been done. Since Achim made the effort to build more MTO airfields, I still owe him and others some add-on TA missions in gratitude for his hard work.

But, in keeping with Rami's original post here, I do miss feedback from having beta testors for the Aces missions. I have built most of them on my own, tested them myself, and uploaded them without any advice and testing by others. I don't think they measure up to the TA missions where I was able to have Rami, Jagd, and others provide input before uploading them.

So, bottom line: if any of you see some room for improvement on the Aces missions; GO FOR IT! Make them better for everyone.

DD73
 
Wow!

Great discussion, guys! It's kinda good to hear things from the 'other side of the fence' so to speak.

I do agree with Maskrider that, at least in my case, it's sometimes difficult to post a problem because I think it's probably something I did and it's going to reflect poorly on the designer, so I sometimes don't post.

What I really like about this particular thread is that it shows us that we're a community and we stick together here. I've met some pretty terrific people here and for that fact alone, I'm grateful. If I hadn't have had the courage to PM some guys, or to post a thread, I'da been the loser for sure. I love this game and what it's given me. My hat is off to all of you for just bein' there!

Thank you! :salute:
 
Reply...

Sopwith Chameleon said:
..........although sometimes I think, "Why do I bother ?"
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I've muttered that to myself on more than one occasion...hehe.

But seriously, I'm glad this hasn't gone negative.

Devildog,

I agree that it's part of its own reward, and I do slip in to see how many downloads there have been.

Ghostrider,

Yes, I do what I do because I love it, and it's a way for me to take my passion for history and turn it into something constructive that doesn't bore my poor wife to death.

My goal here is to make sure that people do take the time to appreciate all the developers and tweakers. Though it may not be the intent, the lack of response sometimes gives the impression that the time and energy spent by the developers making these goodies is being taken for granted as an expectation rather than a unique contribution.
 
I think the point that Rami is trying to make is - When the community gives feedback it helps the scenery designer, plane developer, people who do textures and mission/campaign developers to evolve.

No one starts at the top of what they choose to do, it's a PROCESS to get better. Part of that PROCESS is feedback.

Talon
 
Reply...

PJMack said:
Atta Boy Rami:salute:
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PJmack,

Thanks, but this kind of misses the mark.

I'm not speaking up because I'm the only one who sometimes feels slighted or marginalized, this has been going on for a while. I won't make the point again, because It's already been covered in the thread.
 
Rami said:
PJmack,

Thanks, but this kind of misses the mark.

I'm not speaking up because I'm the only one who sometimes feels slighted or marginalized, this has been going on for a while. I won't make the point again, because It's already been covered in the thread.
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Rami,

To hit the mark, I am a user who utilizes my own converted aircraft and would love to know how to use Mission Builder to add them to the Mossie missions and campaigns which you have so greatly done. Does this help?:jump:
 
I guess I'm an offender at this reticence to praise other's work too, I just finished your Pattle campaign and loved it. I am interested in the MTO and would like to see more campaigns here. I have half finished a repaint of one of the DO-217s you asked about, I'll try to get it finished ASAP. I'm hoping Leroy will upload his P-40 sometime soon cos I'd like some feedback on the skins I did. I'm a bit hesitant uploading my own skins because so many other painters like Morton and Sopwith are so much better. I am so impressed by Collin and Sully's ships and the conversions UT did too. I'll be more forthcoming in the future about giving feedback to other guys, though sometimes it's several months before I can use new planes, ships and campaigns but I guess retrospective comments would still be appreciated,
Bravo to all who help make CFS2 the grand old Lady of sims
 
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