Angle Deck Essex

[SkippyBing]

There's a naval forum?!?!

 

[Bjoern]

[...]

Alright, point taken. :costumes:

Thanks for the images!

 

[michael davies]

Actually those three Quad tubs below the bridge structure threw me out for a good amount of time, I'd got images of three tubs in May 44, no tubs in Sep 44 and back to three again in Feb 45, the biggest problem was that the shots were quite low angles so you couldn't see the deck numbers or the catwalk layout to confirm it was the same vessel, many WWII images are wrongly labelled and some post war ones too, the biggest is an image supposedly of Forrestal but is actually Ranger.

Cross referencing the particular Essex radar fit was no use either as this changed almost monthly, the muddle was cleared up by a Essex historian on another site, the three starboard side tubs below the bridge were bolted on, to transit the Panama canal the tubs were take off and stowed aboard and then refitted on the other side in a quick yard fit before action, the dates just happened to coincide with an East coast yard refit for a Pacific based carrier.

There is only one certainty with Essex carriers and weapons / radar fit and even paint colors, almost anything is possible, thats the beauty of researching them .

They were all removed post war anyway, all SCB 125 refits ( angled decks ) had the dual 5" mounts taken off, and some SCB 27 ( new bridge ) retained them, usually the helo carrier conversions, Valley Forge lost the two deck ones but retained the two mounted on pedestals, it all gets a bit messy with the SCB conversions and what went where and for how long, like WWII, fits and refits seemed to happen in very quick order.

Best

Michael

By the way, in comparing the Leyte vs. Mikes presentation I noticed that the quad 40 sponsons were eliminated from the starboard side of the Leyte.
They were on it when I was aboard her so she apparently had them removed for the Korean conflict.
Small wonder, traditionally, gunners aboard a Carrier, inspite of having a more stable platform, could not hit a barn door.
In the mean time the Destroyers would hit anything that came into range. I believe that finally they even did way with the 5 inch turrets and emplacements too.

 

[SkippyBing]

many WWII images are wrongly labelled and some post war ones too, the biggest is an image supposedly of Forrestal but is actually Ranger.

The worst I've seen is in the UK's Defence Recognition Journal. The naval recce test for the month was on carriers, basically 10 pictures of carriers plus the background image. The background image was allegedly a Nimitz class carrier. Strange how it say John F Kennedy across the stern.
It is truly a useless publication at times.

 

[michael davies]

Yup, thats quite a big blunder LOL.

Ok sea trials, well the wires work, not sure which one I'm catching but it does stop most of the time....given my ham fisted controlled crash landings, however the cat does not, the yellow box is a dummy block just to show me where the cat start is, the launch bar is down but no go, drive over it, back and forth and no cat shot, is there a key command ( cant find one yet ) or is it an automatic trigger ?.

Best

Michael

Addendum, Skippy just checked the Essex poly count, 173K at last compile....Ooouch, but it compiled, cant work out how you broke the compiler with all your Pom Poms ?, I've heard 250K is possible ?.

The worst I've seen is in the UK's Defence Recognition Journal. The naval recce test for the month was on carriers, basically 10 pictures of carriers plus the background image. The background image was allegedly a Nimitz class carrier. Strange how it say John F Kennedy across the stern.
It is truly a useless publication at times.

 

[PRB]

My favorite is when the show photos, or even film, of carriers in which the film has been put in backwards, so that the island is on the wrong side. I see that a lot in WW-II film and photos. I wonder how that happens so much.

 

[michael davies]

My favorite is when the show photos, or even film, of carriers in which the film has been put in backwards, so that the island is on the wrong side. I see that a lot in WW-II film and photos. I wonder how that happens so much.

Ahh, now if they are IJN carriers then it might be right , there were some carriers built as sisters, one with a bridge on the port side and one with a bridge on the starboard side, the idea being to sail with the bridges next to each other for better communcations and concerted launch and recovery, each carrier circuit being 'outside' the two carriers in a double lobed sort of thing.

Best

Michael

 

[BASys]

Hi Folks

however the cat does not,
the yellow box is a dummy block just to show me where the cat start is,
the launch bar is down but no go,
drive over it, back and forth and no cat shot,
is there a key command ( cant find one yet )
or is it an automatic trigger ?

Michael -
Catapult launch requires multiple key inputs.

To launch from an aircraft carrier

1. Taxi the aircraft into position for assisted takeoff.
   Note 1: The nose wheel of the aircraft must be inside one of the red/white stripe boxes around the catapult launch sled.
2. Press SHIFT+U to extend the launch bar.
3. Press SHIFT+I to enage the catapult (assisted takeoff).
4. Press F4 or push the joystick throttle forward to advance power to FULL.
5. With the engines at full takeoff power, press SHIFT+SPACEBAR to launch the catapult.
   Note 2: The launch bar will retract automatically once the throttle is advanced past 80%
   AND the aircraft releases from the catapult sled.

Ensure you're using an appropriately modified aircraft.cfg.

See links at FSDeveloper - Wiki - Catapult/Arrestor Operations (FSXA)


HTH
ATB
Paul

 

[sparouty]

Hello!
I had recently both of your problems : cat not working and FSX compiler issue...

For the catapult, I had to move my model reference point to make it working. I don't really understand why, but it worked...Is this catapult feature work only if for the FSX Carrier configuration??

For the FSX compiler issue, I had an error due to draw call limitation : 64k polys max per material. I was using my main texture for all railings, ladders, etc.. which made me "overflow" the draw call capacity for this texture.

I used Arno's DrawCallMonitor tool (from FSDeveloper.com) to check my drawcalls and fixed my problem...

Regards,
Sylvain

 

[michael davies]

Paul,

Thanks for that, problem is it still doesnt work, dont thinbk its the aircraft, more like my attach points, also I seem to have lost my labels like tail hook and brake etc, can anyone remember the cfg entry please, looked and clean forgotten which one I might have changed !.

Best

Michael

Hi Folks


Michael -
Catapult launch requires multiple key inputs.

To launch from an aircraft carrier

1. Taxi the aircraft into position for assisted takeoff.
   Note 1: The nose wheel of the aircraft must be inside one of the red/white stripe boxes around the catapult launch sled.
2. Press SHIFT+U to extend the launch bar.
3. Press SHIFT+I to enage the catapult (assisted takeoff).
4. Press F4 or push the joystick throttle forward to advance power to FULL.
5. With the engines at full takeoff power, press SHIFT+SPACEBAR to launch the catapult.
   Note 2: The launch bar will retract automatically once the throttle is advanced past 80%
   AND the aircraft releases from the catapult sled.

Ensure you're using an appropriately modified aircraft.cfg.

See links at FSDeveloper - Wiki - Catapult/Arrestor Operations (FSXA)


HTH
ATB
Paul

 

[BASys]

Hi Folks

Michael -
You mentioned previously
that you think the arrestor wires are working.

Just in case they're not,
and you've been landing without.
i.e.
FSXAcceleration key mapping is not installed
Please see FSDeveloper - Wiki - Key Mapping (FSXA)



Configuring Aircraft
You can add the required sections directly into your aircraft.cfg.

The aircraft.cfg entries will automatically override the equivalent entries in the model.

Example code is for Acceleration F/A18.



For launch assist, (Catapult)

[launch_assistance]
launch_bar_pivot = Launch bar pivot point relative to datum reference point.
launch_bar_lug = Launch bar lug point relative to datum reference point.

[launch_assistance]
launch_bar_pivot = 5.0, 0.0, -1.0
launch_bar_lug = 5.0, 0.0, -4.5

For Landing, (Arrestor Cables)

[tailhook]
tailhook_length = Length of tailhook in feet.
tailhook_position = Tailhook pivot point relative to datum reference point.

[tailhook]
tailhook_length = 4.5
tailhook_position = -49.0, 0, -2.5

HTH
ATB
Paul

 

[SkippyBing]

Michael, I think it was my over enthusiastic use of smoothing groups that caused the problem, basically the vertices on the edge of a smoothing group are counted twice, i.e. once for each group they're part of.

As a quick idiot check, have you got the start and end catapult attach points the right way round? I'm trying to think what problems I had getting it to work the first time, but they were all down to syntax problems in the user defined section of the object properties, e.g. attachpt_attachpt_catapult_start_1 etc. Took me a day to spot that one.
Might be worth double checking the T-45 on the default carrier to confirm that works properly, or use the F/A-18. I take it you've tried extending the launch bar and then taxiing slowly through the attach point area pressing Shift+I to try and get it to hook on?
I don't think the hierarchy of the attach points matters, although mine are all just attached to the deck.

Note 2: The launch bar will retract automatically once the throttle is advanced past 80%
AND the aircraft releases from the catapult sled.

I found it wanted to be in afterburner, which is +80% throttle but a problem for non-afterburning types, could just be me though!

 

[Helldiver]

I'll be darned, now that you mention it, the gun tubs were taken off when we went through the Canal They were taken off at Panama City with the on-board cranes. They must have been stored outboard though, I don't remember them on the hanger deck. I remember they took off the gas line that ran all most the length of the ship on the port side, but plumb forgot about the sponsons. We had, I believe, 18 inches clearance when we got everything cleaned off.
The memory is a sometimes thing. I wonder how these guys write what happened during WWII with an old memory. I wouldn't trust mine.

 

[Collin]

Gun tubs on the Illustrious class HMS Victorious had to be removed to transit the Panama Canal when she was loaned to the USN.

Basically the building of the Essex class was very dynamic in design as the war progressed, and combat experience feedback began to have its effect.
The later ones completed on the east coast (like Valley Forge) didn't feature the starboard gun tubs so that they could transit the Canal. Also the 20mm guns were drastically reduced as they were no longer any good except as a warning to those on the lower decks that the ship was under close attack.
The weight saved in guns and ammo was welcomed as these ships were now so top heavy that their torpedo resistance had now been reduced to one.
Habitability was also a severe problem with all the new equipment that had been added, air-conditioning was always a major headache and remained so for the rest of their working lives.

Michael, we had a thread on this a couple of years ago, not sure if it was lost to the digital ether during the last crash.

Skippy, Naval forum-
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/forumdisplay.php?f=25

regards Collin:ernae:

 

[michael davies]

Colin, yes the Essex suffered terribly with ventilation, so much so that after terrible fire fighting problems with smoke in accommodation areas that a new vent system was added to the Port side, later vessels and refitted vessels had new trunking added outboard, originally the duct ran right through the upper hanger bay and was susceptible to smoke infusion which was then pumped through out most of the vessel, modified vessels can be ascertained by the extra trunking on the port side, I think there was three ducts in all, but only two were easily visible, you can just see the extra trunking on Valley Forge aft of the Port deck elevator in the image below, it runs from the tween deck just below the flight deck ( 02 level ? ) to just below the hanger deck level.

Didn't see that thread, shame as you can often pick up snippets of info here and there, some good information can be gathered from plastic modellers sites dotted around.

20mm was basically a moral booster later in WWII, even the Quad 40s were not that effective toward dive bomber Kamikaze planes, the 5" dual mount had the punch but not the rate of fire, some Essex carriers had a few 20mm changed to twin 20mm ans some had Dual and Quad Army 50 cal mounts, plenty of fire power and punch, but a non standard fitting and thus fell foul of spares and ammo etc.

Bob noted that Escorts usually had better results, thats down to the directors, on the carriers it was one director per Quad or per pair of Quads, on escorts I think it was quite often one director to three or four Quads, a much more concentrated mass of fire power.

Best

Michael

 

[michael davies]

Skippy,

I think its going to be something simple, I'm fairly sure the aircraft is ok, only issue I have is that at full power its runnig through the hand brake, could this ( hand brake ) be holding off the cat ?, release it and press the right keys and nothing happens, like you say I need to check with a default carrier.

As for the Accell F-18, what a pig to fly and land, thats why I opted for the T-45, much more stable and docile, it traps ok and I've not seen any adverse reports about cats so assume its local.

Will recheck all tomorrow with a fresh mind.

Is there a default carrier in free flight you can check cats from ?, I've yet to find a carrier full stop in FSx, not looked that hard to be honest LOL.

Best

Michael

Michael, I think it was my over enthusiastic use of smoothing groups that caused the problem, basically the vertices on the edge of a smoothing group are counted twice, i.e. once for each group they're part of.

As a quick idiot check, have you got the start and end catapult attach points the right way round? I'm trying to think what problems I had getting it to work the first time, but they were all down to syntax problems in the user defined section of the object properties, e.g. attachpt_attachpt_catapult_start_1 etc. Took me a day to spot that one.
Might be worth double checking the T-45 on the default carrier to confirm that works properly, or use the F/A-18. I take it you've tried extending the launch bar and then taxiing slowly through the attach point area pressing Shift+I to try and get it to hook on?
I don't think the hierarchy of the attach points matters, although mine are all just attached to the deck.



I found it wanted to be in afterburner, which is +80% throttle but a problem for non-afterburning types, could just be me though!

 

[michael davies]

The memory is a sometimes thing. I wonder how these guys write what happened during WWII with an old memory. I wouldn't trust mine.

I cant remember what happened last week !!, seriously I do struggle with all thats going on right now, let alone 65 years ago LOL.

It took me too many hours today and yesterday to remember where I had got to on the Essex projects and how to compile a FSx model since Sept, thats how fast I forget these things these days LOL.

Kindest

Michael

 

[SkippyBing]

Michael

http://www.simtours.net/defaultaircraftcarrier.php gives a schedule for the freeflight carriers in acceleration.

You shouldn't need the parking brake if you're hooked onto the cat, not sure what effect having it on has.
Depressingly it's always something simple that's stopping it working so you feel a bit of a t*t when you solve it rather than some sort of genius!

 

[BASys]

Hi Folks

Michael -
EDIT -
ISTR there might be a carrier with working catapults/arrestor cables
positioned statically offshore of the Golden Gate bridge.

I've updated the info at - FSDeveloper - Wiki - Catapult/Arrestor Operations (FSXA)

Its still a WIP.
but incorporates & hopefully clarifies some of the info from Paul's long blog post.

Paul & Skippy -
Maybe you could give it a onceover please.
Any tips/info/corrections would be appreciated.

HTH
ATB
Paul

 

[SkippyBing]

Paul,

added a few bits and a link to the mini tutorial I did on how to actually add the attach points as they're not in the attach point tool!