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The Staff of SOH
Anyone ever seen this movie before??
- Thread starter warchild
- Start date
WarHorse47
SOH-CM-2024
Yes. Even picked up the DVD. Not a very accurate plot, but still entertaining.
Josh Patterson
SOH-CM-2023
Thanks Pam!! I've been looking for it on DVD as all I've seen before are clips on YouTube! I saw a title that Jester is in it but funny Dan Aykroyd isn't in the opening credits! Didn't think it was going to be a three hour movie but IIRC The Arrow was a miniseries. I would like to find"Älskar, älskar inte" even if it is in subtitles as it has some sweet SAAB Viggen scenes!
warchild
Charter Member
Yeahh, addicting movie.. Didnt know how accurate it was but with the way they interlaced reality into the movie, i honestly couldnt tell.. I know they cant duplicate conversations or anything, but still.. I dont think I've ever seen Dan Akroyd in a serious role before. Was a shock, but more shocking is how well he could have played Richard Nixon..
Bjoern
worst developer ever
I quite like docudramas, but the departure from the facts for broader audience appeal doesn't quite motivate enough to sit through the three hours.
At 10 minutes or something, they talk about the IL-22 (a bomber prototype), yet show film of the Tu-16. Made my eye twitch.
At 10 minutes or something, they talk about the IL-22 (a bomber prototype), yet show film of the Tu-16. Made my eye twitch.
warchild
Charter Member
:
: I was so tired at that point, i didnt even notice.. Thought it was missing that unique Ilyushin Profile..
magoo
SOH-CM-2013
It's nice to watch......but as usual, a lot of fairy-tale gets woven through the story. Ahhh...that's show biz.
One interesting point.....the missing Arrow folklore.
I got to sit with a man (twenty years ago) who was one of the production managers during the Arrow project. He claims he personally saw all the flyable planes cut-up, and too, the remaining (17?) airframes that were already on the production line.
However......during the week of Black Friday, he said a group of engineers were visiting the Orenda (engine) plant from Bristol Aerospace. When word came down on the Friday, he described how a crated Iroquois engine was discretely loaded onto an RCAF transport with the Bristol team, and cleared with flightplans for a destination in the UK.
Apparently nobody really paid attention to that.
True or not.....Hmmmm.
Not as romantic as the movie, anyway.
In the West, the USA, Canada, the UK, and France were all working on a similar prototype requirements, almost all ended up axed. Just one made it into service.....the Mirage IV.
An amazing plane itself, perhaps a reasonable example of what the Arrow may have been in service.
One thing for certain, the way Canada's Federal Government handled the cancellation of the Arrow project almost instantly knocked out massive percentage of Canada's aviation production industry by shutting down sub-contractors, and led to a rapid migration of talent and expertise to the USA and United Kingdom.
Done deal, few of them ever returned.
One interesting point.....the missing Arrow folklore.
I got to sit with a man (twenty years ago) who was one of the production managers during the Arrow project. He claims he personally saw all the flyable planes cut-up, and too, the remaining (17?) airframes that were already on the production line.
However......during the week of Black Friday, he said a group of engineers were visiting the Orenda (engine) plant from Bristol Aerospace. When word came down on the Friday, he described how a crated Iroquois engine was discretely loaded onto an RCAF transport with the Bristol team, and cleared with flightplans for a destination in the UK.
Apparently nobody really paid attention to that.
True or not.....Hmmmm.
Not as romantic as the movie, anyway.
In the West, the USA, Canada, the UK, and France were all working on a similar prototype requirements, almost all ended up axed. Just one made it into service.....the Mirage IV.
An amazing plane itself, perhaps a reasonable example of what the Arrow may have been in service.
One thing for certain, the way Canada's Federal Government handled the cancellation of the Arrow project almost instantly knocked out massive percentage of Canada's aviation production industry by shutting down sub-contractors, and led to a rapid migration of talent and expertise to the USA and United Kingdom.
Done deal, few of them ever returned.
magoo
SOH-CM-2013
The Super Arrow......nice shape, eh?
I'd be surprised if anything beyond the homemade models were ever developed from that. I don't wish to be mean spirited in anyway, but truly, there's a great difference between a hobbiest's museful explorations, and a major aviation firm's research protoype submission to fulfill a government's military requirement.
Fun to play with in X-Plane, I think it'd be an interesting exercise to plot the physics as close to the visual graphic model as possible, just to see what it could do.
But you know....any jet fighter we can see a picture of right now, is most likely obsolescent already. (Quit posting images of your prototypes, China AF!)
Think of unmanned flying weapons...a drone interceptor that can pull un-holy maneuvers that a human could never survive, flown by a technician in an air conditioned trailer half a world away. Maybe so small and inexpensive that it is the missile itself.
A big bird like the SuperArrow (Or even an F.35) would be/can be a sitting duck.... we're almost there....if not already. Who's going to start an expensive new development program for something like the SuperArrow today?
Develop a disposable interceptor drone the size of a Sparrow missile at a low price.....that'll attract interest.
Something else to muse upon, regarding the original Avro Arrow and it's cancellation.
This all went down at a time (late 1950's) when it was becoming clear that the Soviet Union was investing huge resources into extensive missile defense networks, backing up an astoundingly impressive ICBM (offensive) system.
It was all demonstrated quite clearly in 1960 when an unfortunate Gary Powers had his "untouchable" Lockheed U-2 shot out from under him over the USSR.
With this, I would draw a parallel example of two jet interceptor prototype programs that were canceled in 1959 when deemed obsolete by the Soviet's new strategic focus.
The Avro CF-105 Arrow in Canada, and in the USA, the North American XF-108 Rapier.
By global standards, Avro & Orenda Canada were small companies, and the post war Canadian aviation industry could also be viewed on a similar scale. When the Arrow was canceled, the shock wave that reverberated across Canada's aviation industry was enormous and changed the landscape completely.
Avro soldiered on for a couple of years under bankruptcy protection, and was eventually absorbed by Canadian Car & Foundry Ltd., in turn owned by Hawker Siddeley Canada Ltd,, which in turn sold off some of the the Malton Ontario (Avro) production facilities to Douglas Aircraft Ltd, along with most of Avro's engineering patents.
Avro Canada thus was dispersed forever.
North American's XF-108 was to fulfill a similar specification as the Arrow, and was started a few years later in development, and enjoyed newer design technology from a company that was as large, or even larger than all of Canada's aviation industry combined. (I'm musing in a speculative way here.....humour me, I might not be wrong on this.)
The XF-108 was being developed at the same time as the XB-70 Valkyrie, shared some design details as well as engines. (And) most fortunate for North American Aviation, the XF-108 was only developed as far as the full scale mock-up when canceled.(Arrow was going right into production from the first five prototypes, with extensive production facilities already in full gear, along with a large network of sub-contracting firms.)
Even though the cancellation of the Rapier had little or no impact on the giant North American Aviation LTD, the later cancellation of it's sibling B-70 bomber program in 1961 could be seen as the loss of an investment almost similar to Avro Canada's loss of the Arrow.
Perhaps due to it's sheer size, it's cash flow due to existing production contracts, and the vast and dynamic size of the American economy at the time, North american Aviation simply shrugged it's shoulders and carried on, business as usual.
The fact that N.A.Aviation had the girth to survive such disruptive events meant that research developments could be carried beyond canceled program to contribute to designs that eventually gained tremendous success, and restore to original investment value.
Just for fun, look at images of the XF-108 Rapier, and then have a look at those of the A-5 Vigilante.
And with that, take look at the CF-105 Arrow's variable ramp jet intake, and then view the same feature on McDonnell Douglas' venerable F4 Phantom. (Remember Douglas' purchase of patent inventory?)
I think the point is that a lot of enthusiasts lament the idea of lost glory in regard to the canceled projects of these late fifties super fighter-bomber aircraft, the Arrow, the Rapier, the TSR-2 (1965), and perhaps others, were I to explore further.
In hindsight, the cancellations proved to be correct, saving potential billions in taxpayer money.
Furthermore, the brilliant Lockheed YF-12 (1963-68) pushed the "interceptor" envelope into a level that could be seen as purely sublime, at least compared to the Arrow's mission statement.
Even as the YF-12 siblings A-12 & SR-71 went on to enjoy legendary careers in surveillance, the YF-12 interceptor never went into full production or service.
What's left of CF-105 Arrow, TSR-2, YF-12 now, is the ilk of the Unicorn.
"How glorious it would have been", they say.
Truly, Avro Arrow and BAC TSR-2 never fired a shot. They remain these wonderful, ghostly, slightly sad apparitions of myth around which circulate countless legends, rumour, and what-ifs.
The similar Mirage IV (different mission/ similar specs) gave a host of aircrew the ride of their life, set a few low altitude speed records (no doubt, trimming a few trees in the process) and are now long retired, with many individuals out there who cannot (to this day) wipe the grins off their face.
And it the end, real or fantasy, it all didn't turn out so bad.
Ahh...and while raising a toast to the belated Arrow, TSR-2, the almost XF-108, the now retired, ground hugging Mirage IV, and the ethereal YF-12, I thought I'd post a link about the UK bound Orenda engine. It seems the elderly gentleman who worked for Avro, and then later, McDonnell Douglas....may not have been spinning me a yarn:
http://www.pipelinenewsnorth.ca/news/industry-news/straight-as-an-arrow-1.1122849
I'd be surprised if anything beyond the homemade models were ever developed from that. I don't wish to be mean spirited in anyway, but truly, there's a great difference between a hobbiest's museful explorations, and a major aviation firm's research protoype submission to fulfill a government's military requirement.
Fun to play with in X-Plane, I think it'd be an interesting exercise to plot the physics as close to the visual graphic model as possible, just to see what it could do.
But you know....any jet fighter we can see a picture of right now, is most likely obsolescent already. (Quit posting images of your prototypes, China AF!)
Think of unmanned flying weapons...a drone interceptor that can pull un-holy maneuvers that a human could never survive, flown by a technician in an air conditioned trailer half a world away. Maybe so small and inexpensive that it is the missile itself.
A big bird like the SuperArrow (Or even an F.35) would be/can be a sitting duck.... we're almost there....if not already. Who's going to start an expensive new development program for something like the SuperArrow today?
Develop a disposable interceptor drone the size of a Sparrow missile at a low price.....that'll attract interest.
Something else to muse upon, regarding the original Avro Arrow and it's cancellation.
This all went down at a time (late 1950's) when it was becoming clear that the Soviet Union was investing huge resources into extensive missile defense networks, backing up an astoundingly impressive ICBM (offensive) system.
It was all demonstrated quite clearly in 1960 when an unfortunate Gary Powers had his "untouchable" Lockheed U-2 shot out from under him over the USSR.
With this, I would draw a parallel example of two jet interceptor prototype programs that were canceled in 1959 when deemed obsolete by the Soviet's new strategic focus.
The Avro CF-105 Arrow in Canada, and in the USA, the North American XF-108 Rapier.
By global standards, Avro & Orenda Canada were small companies, and the post war Canadian aviation industry could also be viewed on a similar scale. When the Arrow was canceled, the shock wave that reverberated across Canada's aviation industry was enormous and changed the landscape completely.
Avro soldiered on for a couple of years under bankruptcy protection, and was eventually absorbed by Canadian Car & Foundry Ltd., in turn owned by Hawker Siddeley Canada Ltd,, which in turn sold off some of the the Malton Ontario (Avro) production facilities to Douglas Aircraft Ltd, along with most of Avro's engineering patents.
Avro Canada thus was dispersed forever.
North American's XF-108 was to fulfill a similar specification as the Arrow, and was started a few years later in development, and enjoyed newer design technology from a company that was as large, or even larger than all of Canada's aviation industry combined. (I'm musing in a speculative way here.....humour me, I might not be wrong on this.)
The XF-108 was being developed at the same time as the XB-70 Valkyrie, shared some design details as well as engines. (And) most fortunate for North American Aviation, the XF-108 was only developed as far as the full scale mock-up when canceled.(Arrow was going right into production from the first five prototypes, with extensive production facilities already in full gear, along with a large network of sub-contracting firms.)
Even though the cancellation of the Rapier had little or no impact on the giant North American Aviation LTD, the later cancellation of it's sibling B-70 bomber program in 1961 could be seen as the loss of an investment almost similar to Avro Canada's loss of the Arrow.
Perhaps due to it's sheer size, it's cash flow due to existing production contracts, and the vast and dynamic size of the American economy at the time, North american Aviation simply shrugged it's shoulders and carried on, business as usual.
The fact that N.A.Aviation had the girth to survive such disruptive events meant that research developments could be carried beyond canceled program to contribute to designs that eventually gained tremendous success, and restore to original investment value.
Just for fun, look at images of the XF-108 Rapier, and then have a look at those of the A-5 Vigilante.
And with that, take look at the CF-105 Arrow's variable ramp jet intake, and then view the same feature on McDonnell Douglas' venerable F4 Phantom. (Remember Douglas' purchase of patent inventory?)
I think the point is that a lot of enthusiasts lament the idea of lost glory in regard to the canceled projects of these late fifties super fighter-bomber aircraft, the Arrow, the Rapier, the TSR-2 (1965), and perhaps others, were I to explore further.
In hindsight, the cancellations proved to be correct, saving potential billions in taxpayer money.
Furthermore, the brilliant Lockheed YF-12 (1963-68) pushed the "interceptor" envelope into a level that could be seen as purely sublime, at least compared to the Arrow's mission statement.
Even as the YF-12 siblings A-12 & SR-71 went on to enjoy legendary careers in surveillance, the YF-12 interceptor never went into full production or service.
What's left of CF-105 Arrow, TSR-2, YF-12 now, is the ilk of the Unicorn.
"How glorious it would have been", they say.
Truly, Avro Arrow and BAC TSR-2 never fired a shot. They remain these wonderful, ghostly, slightly sad apparitions of myth around which circulate countless legends, rumour, and what-ifs.
The similar Mirage IV (different mission/ similar specs) gave a host of aircrew the ride of their life, set a few low altitude speed records (no doubt, trimming a few trees in the process) and are now long retired, with many individuals out there who cannot (to this day) wipe the grins off their face.
And it the end, real or fantasy, it all didn't turn out so bad.
Ahh...and while raising a toast to the belated Arrow, TSR-2, the almost XF-108, the now retired, ground hugging Mirage IV, and the ethereal YF-12, I thought I'd post a link about the UK bound Orenda engine. It seems the elderly gentleman who worked for Avro, and then later, McDonnell Douglas....may not have been spinning me a yarn:
http://www.pipelinenewsnorth.ca/news/industry-news/straight-as-an-arrow-1.1122849
warchild
Charter Member
I dont think i've ever heard or read the truth delivered with such loving eloquence..
I was a very young child when Sputnik went into space, and had no understanding of what that meant to the security of the world. I learned duck and cover and kiss your butt goodbye, but i didnt think Sputnik started it. We had B-58s, B-47s, flying wings and Klatu Barada Nicto.. We had Big Bopper, Elvis Presley and Dance Party on TV. For a young child it was an Idyllic time punctuated only by the dreaded requirement of getting up and going to school..
Fourty some years ago, i learned electronics, because i could. I didnt want too, but it paid the bills. My real love was aircraft, which my mother forbade me to even think about as her brother as killed while flying during world war two. She was afraid i'd go off and get myself killed too, sop I joined the army at seventeen and a year later was in vietnam, which was probably seen as much safer than flying by my mom.. She even burned my uncles flying boots; an item i had coveted since the day of my birth.. Vietnam destroyed any real chance of ever getting my ppl but when i saw FS9 after nearly twenty years of playing with every so called simulator i could get my hands on, i knew i had found something where i could eventually get as close to flying a real plane as possible..
Here we are, thirteen years later. I've made hundreds of planes fly ( some better than others to be sure ). I've gotten extremely close to reality on many of them and not so close to reality on others.. But! I've also seen the parade of Hawks and Goss Hawks; of Fa/18s and mustangs; P-40s and Panthers and the ubiquitous onslaught of Carenado single sided textures.. I've oftn wondered why people like such and such a plane, and not this other one. Your seeing what Dean can do, and many of you know what i can do. If Dean is interested, I'd like to build a new freeware Arrow, but I'd also like to do a super arrow. I just dont know if anyone would be interested in it.. ICBM's, hydrogen bombs and being dusted, vaped or worse, have all become part of our daily mentlity. We seem to have lost the courage to dream for fear of what may happen. I'd like to bring planes from the past into the sim, so that we can also bring possible future designs in and enjoy as well.. I'm just not so sure anyone in this apathetic frightened world culture of ours would really care..
I was a very young child when Sputnik went into space, and had no understanding of what that meant to the security of the world. I learned duck and cover and kiss your butt goodbye, but i didnt think Sputnik started it. We had B-58s, B-47s, flying wings and Klatu Barada Nicto.. We had Big Bopper, Elvis Presley and Dance Party on TV. For a young child it was an Idyllic time punctuated only by the dreaded requirement of getting up and going to school..
Fourty some years ago, i learned electronics, because i could. I didnt want too, but it paid the bills. My real love was aircraft, which my mother forbade me to even think about as her brother as killed while flying during world war two. She was afraid i'd go off and get myself killed too, sop I joined the army at seventeen and a year later was in vietnam, which was probably seen as much safer than flying by my mom.. She even burned my uncles flying boots; an item i had coveted since the day of my birth.. Vietnam destroyed any real chance of ever getting my ppl but when i saw FS9 after nearly twenty years of playing with every so called simulator i could get my hands on, i knew i had found something where i could eventually get as close to flying a real plane as possible..
Here we are, thirteen years later. I've made hundreds of planes fly ( some better than others to be sure ). I've gotten extremely close to reality on many of them and not so close to reality on others.. But! I've also seen the parade of Hawks and Goss Hawks; of Fa/18s and mustangs; P-40s and Panthers and the ubiquitous onslaught of Carenado single sided textures.. I've oftn wondered why people like such and such a plane, and not this other one. Your seeing what Dean can do, and many of you know what i can do. If Dean is interested, I'd like to build a new freeware Arrow, but I'd also like to do a super arrow. I just dont know if anyone would be interested in it.. ICBM's, hydrogen bombs and being dusted, vaped or worse, have all become part of our daily mentlity. We seem to have lost the courage to dream for fear of what may happen. I'd like to bring planes from the past into the sim, so that we can also bring possible future designs in and enjoy as well.. I'm just not so sure anyone in this apathetic frightened world culture of ours would really care..
Remember the TSR-2. England’s gross error and the descent of the aircraft industry all due to politicians.
Bjoern
worst developer ever
There was no market for the Arrow outside Canada and therefor recuperating the development cost would have been much, much harder.
Britain's aircraft program got cut down, the US had the F-106, a much more efficient design and the rest of the world didn't have the money or didn't need it.
And besides, the CF-101B looked much better anyway.
Same thing with the allegedly holy aviation grail that's the TSR2. Too advanced and expensive for a single user and no export market to recuperate some investment. The Buccaneer, Phantom and of course the multinational Jaguar and Tornado were much better and (relatively) cost-efficient solutions to the mission requirements.
Britain's aircraft program got cut down, the US had the F-106, a much more efficient design and the rest of the world didn't have the money or didn't need it.
And besides, the CF-101B looked much better anyway.
Same thing with the allegedly holy aviation grail that's the TSR2. Too advanced and expensive for a single user and no export market to recuperate some investment. The Buccaneer, Phantom and of course the multinational Jaguar and Tornado were much better and (relatively) cost-efficient solutions to the mission requirements.
This is true. The oft-quoted possible sale to Belgium ( because they had purchased CF-100's) was absolute nonsense. At speed, the Arrow's turning radius would have brought it close to Eastern Block borders. A country the size of Belgium would have been much better off with a MiG-21 point defence type of aircraft in the late 50's early 60's.
That being said, the total costs of the Voodoo and Bomarc purchases along with anciliary systems costs brought those systems up to what it would have cost to complete the first run of Arrows if not more.
As to a revival of the Arrow, one needs to look no further than the name Marc Bourdeau to know how much of a scam it would have been......
Agreed.
magoo
SOH-CM-2013
I remember seeing a pair at an airshow in London, Ontario one summer. The noise level was deafening beyond anything around today. Surprisingly big airplanes, they put on an amazing show.
With a slight tongue in cheek, I have to admit...the CF-101 weren't a bad lookin' ride.
Warchild, it'd be neat to see a new build of the CF-105. I can think of few who could write the flight physics for that sort of plane as well as you.
A Mk.I with J-75, Mk.II with the Iroquois, it'd be an interesting exercise.
The Super-Arrow....well....that's be speculative fun. Sort of like a really rich and lavish dessert, repleat with Flambé (or is that...afterburner.....)
warchild
Charter Member
wellll, they only tried selling it to the americans.. The truth is, there are more reasons than carters has little liver pills why it didnt work. the Diefenbaker government wasnt inoccent,and Diefenbaker himself has been called evverything including a traitor but he wasnt the only cause.. The US wanted to sell Bomarck missiles badly, and they manipulated Diefenbaker. But more than that i think is what the missiles represented, which was a change in era's. Using aircraft to protect the borders was a time that was gone, and missiles were needed to protect the nation from ICBMs. To me it was a mentality that was akin to the "we dont need guns on fighters any more" line of thinking. Yeah, true; the Bomarck was a failure, but to the liberal Diefenbaker government, it seemed the correct solution for the then current situation. Was it the correct solution?? I dont know. I'm honestly not that smart. I do know that a couple years later, America cajoled an agreement out of canada that stated that canada would not manufacture any military weapons of its own but would instead jointly develop those weapons with the united states. Now, canada is flying some old worn out FA/18s and needing to change up their forces. They dont want the F-35 because of issues with the plane and costs to operate it either, and even moreso for the f-22, so so, there has been a minor cry out for an updated CF-105 Arrow. Canada lost 14000 jobs in five minutes, and an entire towns population of Malton was wiped off the map because of it. Most of those newly unemployed moved to the US to work with NASA and Boeing. I find myself empathizing with the canadians on this. History and politics and bad bad marketing handed then the very big brown smelly end of the stick, and they deserve better. Maybe its time they told the US where to stick its joint development agreement and strike Diefenbaker's name from history, while hilighting Crawford Gordon Jr's patriotism and contribution to canada, in the face of ever unbeatable odds..
warchild
Charter Member
This is true. The oft-quoted possible sale to Belgium ( because they had purchased CF-100's) was absolute nonsense. At speed, the Arrow's turning radius would have brought it close to Eastern Block borders. A country the size of Belgium would have been much better off with a MiG-21 point defence type of aircraft in the late 50's early 60's.
That being said, the total costs of the Voodoo and Bomarc purchases along with anciliary systems costs brought those systems up to what it would have cost to complete the first run of Arrows if not more.
As to a revival of the Arrow, one needs to look no further than the name Marc Bourdeau to know how much of a scam it would have been......
Agreed.
there appears to be a great number of Marc Bourdeau's listed on google.. I am curious. Could you give me a pointer or url please??
warchild
Charter Member
Magoo.
Agreed on the super arrow. Still, if they were too shorten it, give it vectored thrust and a state of the art sensor package, think of what it would do for canada.. A canadian plane, built in canada, by canadians, for canadians. Canada could use a shot in the arm like that..
As for building the CF-105, I have a P-61C, an RF-8 Crusader and an A-37 surrently on my plate that i need to do before we can think of the CF-105. Still, this is the 60th anniversary of the Arrow, this year, so i'd really like to see it made anew and put out there for the flight sim communities..
Agreed on the super arrow. Still, if they were too shorten it, give it vectored thrust and a state of the art sensor package, think of what it would do for canada.. A canadian plane, built in canada, by canadians, for canadians. Canada could use a shot in the arm like that..
As for building the CF-105, I have a P-61C, an RF-8 Crusader and an A-37 surrently on my plate that i need to do before we can think of the CF-105. Still, this is the 60th anniversary of the Arrow, this year, so i'd really like to see it made anew and put out there for the flight sim communities..
William Njurmi
Members +
Canadians want to keep all DVDs to themselves :-( No shipping to Europe and here it cost almost 60 dollars.