AS F3H Demon 2D Panel

Took a detour from the Voodoo...and am revisiting my Thud panel....rewriting several gauges to use fair-dinkum graphics from photos...partly to get the analogue bits analogue...and partly to simply get more 'real'.
The EPR one has me dipping toes into uncharted waters....it has 2 analogue number sets...one of which is hooked to the perimeter 'pointer' to be an adjustable cruise setting [I think].
I have to work out how to do that...;)

View attachment 9762

So...the OilPress, EGT and FF in this shot are created from photographs so can't be more 'correct'....;)

Edit....except for that on/off flag in the EGT - now working...;)
 
With the EPR...what I'm wanting to do is have a simple 'variable' that responds to click inputs and rotates the bug/pointer and number rolls. Doesn't have to do anything actually 'read' from the proggy re EPR....just move/alter the pointer/numbers.

What I'd normally do is find an existing bit of XML and adapt it...but so far I'm stuck finding one....;)
 
EPR is Exhaust Pressure Ratio. Basically a comparison of the pressures between the front and back of the engine expressed as a ratio with the front being 1 and the back being a variable based on temperature and altitude. This value is used to determine the maximum power setting for what ever phase of flight you are in. Such as takeoff, climb, cruise and go around. The pilot in this case would view a performance chart to determine the max epr setting that is allowed. For example we will use takeoff. If his chart indicates that for the outside air temp and his altitude his max allowable epr is 1.95, he would then on his epr gauge as part of his cockpit setup would rotate a small knob an the gauge, this would cause a small pointer to move on the inside face of his gauge. He would move this to the indicated value he obtained from the chart. When the pointer is moved the numbers in the window on the gauge face move as well to show him the numerical value the pointer is set at. Most people in the flight sim world when making an epr gauge have completely blown this. The pointer and epr numbers do not move when engine power is changed. It completely possible to overboost the engine in a manner of speaking, by pushing the power up above the published max epr setting. For example if you you had a max epr value of 1.65 for climb it was possible to push the engine up to 1.75 or so giving a potential dangerous condition. I've include a sample from a DC-8-62 flight manual to show an example of a takeoff power setting epr chart and an excerpt from a DC8 training manual for more clarification.
 

Attachments

  • epr 2.jpg
    epr 2.jpg
    66.4 KB · Views: 0
  • eprchart.jpg
    eprchart.jpg
    106.6 KB · Views: 0
johndetrick said:
EPR is Exhaust Pressure Ratio. Basically a comparison of the pressures between the front and back of the engine expressed as a ratio with the front being 1 and the back being a variable based on temperature and altitude. This value is used to determine the maximum power setting for what ever phase of flight you are in. Such as takeoff, climb, cruise and go around. The pilot in this case would view a performance chart to determine the max epr setting that is allowed. For example we will use takeoff. If his chart indicates that for the outside air temp and his altitude his max allowable epr is 1.95, he would then on his epr gauge as part of his cockpit setup would rotate a small knob an the gauge, this would cause a small pointer to move on the inside face of his gauge. He would move this to the indicated value he obtained from the chart. When the pointer is moved the numbers in the window on the gauge face move as well to show him the numerical value the pointer is set at. Most people in the flight sim world when making an epr gauge have completely blown this. The pointer and epr numbers do not move when engine power is changed. It completely possible to overboost the engine in a manner of speaking, by pushing the power up above the published max epr setting. For example if you you had a max epr value of 1.65 for climb it was possible to push the engine up to 1.75 or so giving a potential dangerous condition. I've include a sample from a DC-8-62 flight manual to show an example of a takeoff power setting epr chart and an excerpt from a DC8 training manual for more clarification.
Click to expand...

John....yes, I know what it is.....but what I want is simple [not to me] XML coding that can be used to rotate that bug [and the analogue number drums] to that preset...not the methodology of calculating the preset.

In this case the intent is to have the gauge 'interactive' as typically an EPR gauge in these aircraft simply has a drawn [or photographed] static bug and numbers...they 'DO' nothing.
I want to be able to click down/up on a 'knob' and see the pointer and numbers change, that's all...;)

All my gauge work is done by converting and adapting...I can't code from scratch.....when I went to school 'coding' was done with punch cards and a paper clip...;)
 
johndetrick said:
Most people in the flight sim world when making an epr gauge have completely blown this. The pointer and epr numbers do not move when engine power is changed. It completely possible to overboost the engine in a manner of speaking, by pushing the power up above the published max epr setting. For example if you you had a max epr value of 1.65 for climb it was possible to push the engine up to 1.75 or so giving a potential dangerous condition.
Click to expand...

To be fair, FSX' default EPR simulation is horribly broken and requires a bit of arse-pulling on the gauge side of things to fix.

What does the real system do anyway? Does it just provide pointers for the pilot or does it provide an actual stopping point for the engines, i.e. can the pilot in the real thing push the engines beyond the EPR bug setting or not?



Jafo said:
John....yes, I know what it is.....but what I want is simple [not to me] XML coding that can be used to rotate that bug [and the analogue number drums] to that preset...not the methodology of calculating the preset.

In this case the intent is to have the gauge 'interactive' as typically an EPR gauge in these aircraft simply has a drawn [or photographed] static bug and numbers...they 'DO' nothing.
I want to be able to click down/up on a 'knob' and see the pointer and numbers change, that's all...;)

All my gauge work is done by converting and adapting...I can't code from scratch.....when I went to school 'coding' was done with punch cards and a paper clip...;)
Click to expand...

You can take a peek at the EPR gauges from Tom's 727 which I've updated.
They're included here:
http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforu...V-modified-FDE&p=876936&viewfull=1#post876936
 
Bjoern said:
What does the real system do anyway? Does it just provide pointers for the pilot or does it provide an actual stopping point for the engines, i.e. can the pilot in the real thing push the engines beyond the EPR bug setting or not?


/QUOTE]

I think they can be pushed past... In the Thud there are two bugs...one for Take-off and one for cruise....and it would make sense that the lower 'cruise' set bug could be pushed through...to get to takeoff...;)

I'll have a look at your link...but remember....all I am looking for is a clickable input that does NOTHING other than move a bug around a dial...NOT change system limitations like a decision height 'bug' would...if you used that var as a clicked input to move a bug.

I ONLY want the bug to move position visually...on clicked input..and do nothing else.

Here's the gauge...in the panel...it's circled...it responds to throttle input etc....but at the moment has no 'bugs' or drum roll numbers.

View attachment 9796


This Panel is about as extreme as it gets...even the gauge reflections in the cockpit glass 'function' mirrored......oh, and that map...it's a fair-dinkum map...of Nth Vietnam...;)
Click to expand...
 
Ah...had a peek....and if I don't get splinters ...a bit of head scratching and I may yet solve it...;)

You may have saved me...;)

Edit ....except not familiar at all with the XML version used...I can get my head around the simpler version but all this expression-expression has me mostly lost...
 
The movable pointer is just that. A reference, you can definitely push past the reference bug with possible dire consequences. If an autothrotle is installed on the older aircraft it works off of indicated airspeed. The newer jets will use epr or n1 depending on engine type for takeoff settings. As a rule of thumb epr is used by Pratt and Whitney and N1 is used by every one else.
 
OK...let's pretend it's NOT an EPR gauge.

I have a bug.... I need to rotate that bug around an arc/circle via mouse click inputs...that moves the bug via degrees or percent of a full rotation...whatever. It SHOULD NOT relate to an aircraft OR FSX evar or system of any sort.
It's a DUMMY. A graphical representation of what a manual dial does....it turns when you click.
some sort of script that animates, nothing more...;)

The pilot can grab the knob....turn it...and give himself a pointer bug to remind him of what a limit is...and while the pointer is moved...it also shows up on analogue number rolls so he sees the text '2.12' or whatever the setting he sets it to.

I just want to be able to do what the pilot does in this instance...;)


Wrestling with the code...got a bug to 'show'....mouse won't move it....yet.....probably never will as I think it's too sophisticated.

Edit....

I think it's all about 'clickevent'...and what to have it 'do' when you click...;)
 
johndetrick said:
The movable pointer is just that. A reference, you can definitely push past the reference bug with possible dire consequences. If an autothrotle is installed on the older aircraft it works off of indicated airspeed.
Click to expand...

Indicators only, I see. Thanks.



Jafo said:
...
Click to expand...

<simbase.document
I've annotated the EPR gauge.
http://pastebin.com/1JC5i0Rt

The comments are in gray or "<!-- ... -->" brackets.

I've also done away with stuff you wouldn't need for your gauge, like my custom EPR variable. It should all make a bit more sense now.
</simbase.document

This might also be useful if anyone ever wondered how gauges are structured.
 
Bjoern.... thanks for the help/response....;)

"This makes sure that the needle is rotated by a specified amount of degrees when the EPR is at a certain value"


What I am trying to do is in this case move a bug by a specified amount of degrees BUT have no reference at all to "the EPR is at a certain value".


If it were a cause and effect 'if-then' it would read..."if you click 'up' on the button then the bug rotates clockwise x degrees"... the sort of 'coding' that can be used on ANY gauge...that would want a dummy bug that moves.

The coding you use is different...and by the time I edited it to be the more 'traditional' style I managed to break it [the gauge no longer displays].

Without the bug and mouse entries I have a perfectly 'OK' gauge that pretends to be an EPR simplisticly.... but adding and adapting broke it...simply because I'm not familiar with this more verbose language...
"(L:EPRPRESET01, number)" .... what defines 'EPRPRESET01'? Is that being defined by the gauge's earlier coding or is it a user-defined title to a variable that has no actual connection with an EPR?
 
Gauge Name="F105D Engine Pressure Ratio" Version="JAFO"
Image Name="EPR_background.bmp" Luminous="Yes" ImageSizes="276,276"
Element
Position X="138" Y="138"
Image Name="EPR-needle.bmp" Luminous="Yes" PointsTo="East" ImageSizes="132,44"
Axis X="22" Y="22"
Image
Rotate
Value Minimum="60" Maximum="100" >(A:turb eng1 corrected N2,Percent)</Value
Failures
SYSTEM_ENGINE Action="0"
Failures
Nonlinearity
Item Value="100" X="265" Y="180"
Item Value="80" X="2" Y="144"
Item Value="60" X="261" Y="85"
Nonlinearity
Delay DegreesPerSecond="15"
Rotate
Element

Down to here it's fine....but adding/altering the rest below and I break it...;)

Element
Position x="138" Y="138"
Image Name="EPR-bug.bmp" Luminous="Yes" PointsTo="East" ImageSizes="132,44"
Axis X="22" Y="22"
Image
Rotate
Expression
Value Minimum="1.200" Maximum="3.400"
Script>(L:EPRPRESET01, number) 1 *</Script
Expression
Nonlinearity
Expression="1.200" Degrees="20"
Expression="2.000" Degrees="120"
Expression="3.400" Degrees="350"
Nonlinearity
Rotate
Element
MouseArea id="Decrement"
Position X="0" Y="230"
Size>23,46</Size
CursorType>DownArrow</CursorType
MouseClick id="MouseClick"
Script> (L:EPRPRESET01, number) 0.01 - 1.2 max 3.4 min (>L:EPRPRESET01, number) </Script
ClickRepeat>True</ClickRepeat
MouseClick
MouseArea
MouseArea id="Increment"
Position X="23" Y="230"
Size>23,46</Size
CursorType>UpArrow</CursorType
MouseClick id="MouseClick"
Script> (L:EPRPRESET01, number) 0.01 + 1.2 max 3.4 min (>L:EPRPRESET01, number) </Script
ClickRepeat>True</ClickRepeat
MouseClick
MouseArea
Gauge
 
Here's a Thud EPR gauge...resplendent with 2 bugs and 2 number barrels [which repeat the bugs' readings]

I imagine they are set by the knob being pushed to engage the second adjuster....;)

View attachment 9815
 
Solving my own problem...I think...

Using Bjoern's existing EPR ...called 'eng_epr01.xml' I've managed to configure the bug to do and look like what I wanted...and am in the throes of maybe adding the second ...have the digitals displaying bug setting/s...not current EPR rate as was the case.

The bug shown is the 'cruise' level one....readout is at top...then to do the take-off bug...with readout at bottom...and get both to input via the knob.
Still have to plonk the Knob on the left side.....but it's getting there...;)

View attachment 9825 the temp WIP EPR is circled...;)
 
Almost done....all I'm missing is the right syntax to have both left click and right click functions on the Knob...so I can move both bugs...;)
 
As Mr. Detrick has done an excellent job explaining EPR, this excerpt is not to belabor that, but to illustrate the 'Thuds operational use of EPR, to inquiring minds. Apparently, it was exclusively as a power check prior to takeoff. Just some gee-whiz info.

From TO 1F-105D-1, 1970 Covering the D, F, and G:

Pressure Ratio Gage (sic-the word gage is used throughout)

The pressure ratio gage (10, figure 1-3) indicates the ratio of engine turbine discharge pressure to compressor inlet total pressure. The gage is used to determine if engine thrust output on the ground is acceptable for takeoff. The engine compressor section consists of an eight-stage Low pressure compressor and a seven-stage high pressure compressor. The rotor assemblies in each compressor section are mechanically independent and therefore do not rotate at the same RPM. The tachometer indicates the RPM of the high pressure compressor rotor only. During the engine manufacturer's calibration .run of the engine, high pressure rotor RPM necessary for Military Rated Thrust is determined for an outside temperature of 59°F, and this speed is listed on the engine records. Engine performance usually deteriorates as engine operating time is accumulated, and engine speed must be progressively increased above the original "trim setting" to restore Military Rated Thrust. Therefore, the tachometer provides only an approximate indication of engine thrust. Each engine must be treated individually with respect to the RPM at which Military Thrust is obtained. Because of the maximum speed variations between engines and the inherent inaccuracies of tachometers, the engine is trimmed and power checked according to turbine discharge pressure, which does not vary as much with thrust as does RPM. A one percent variation in RPM will result in approximately five percent variation in thrust at the higher thrust settings, while a one percent variation in turbine discharge pressure results in approximately one and one-half percent variations in thrust. The pressure ratio gage gives a more accurate indication of takeoff thrust than the tachometer or exhaust gas temperature gage. The desired pressure ratio gage reading at Military Thrust depends upon outside air temperature, therefore, the gage must be adjusted just before takeoff to compensate for air temperature. Since engine pressure ratio is not used in the performance data presented in the Appendix, the engine pressure ratio gage is not used during flight. However, if RPM drops off due to an engine malfunction, the pressure ratio and exhaust gas temperature gages will also drop off. If the pressure ratio drops at RPM and EGT remain constant, it can be assumed that the malfunction is in the pressure ratio gage system. The ratio is shown by a conventional indicating dial pointer. Two windows in the dial face show recommended takeoff pressure ratio and cruise pressure ratio. The ratios that appear in the windows are adjustable and are set by an adjusting knob at the lower left corner of the instrument dial. The takeoff pressure ratio is adjusted as part of the preflight check by pushing in and turning the adjusting knob until the ratio that appears in the lower window agrees with the ratio specified in the pressure ratio gage setting table (figure 2-6). When using the pressure ratio gage to check thrust before takeoff, the indicating pointer should fall within the limits of the takeoff index marker on the outer circumference of the gage. This marker js automatically set when making the pressure ratio adjustment in the takeoff window. The cruise pressure ratio setting is not used. The pressure ratio gage system uses single phase 115-volt AC secondary power. If this source oi power fails, the gage becomes inoperative, and the indicating pointer will remain at the setting prevailing at the time of electrical power failure.

F105EPR.jpg

It's too bad FSX dorks up the EPR output so bad, I would love to see a legitimate EPR reading in several aircraft.

--Dan
 
Jafo said:
Almost done....all I'm missing is the right syntax to have both left click and right click functions on the Knob...so I can move both bugs...;)
Click to expand...

Well, you'd need to split the mouse area for the EPR bug knob into four mouse areas. Just take the existing two areas and split their height in half, then copy them and move their position downward by one time the new height. Then change the L: var of two of these mouse areas to "(L:EPRPRESET02, number)". Clone the EPR bug's entire "<element>" section and have (L:EPRPRESET02, number) drive its animation.
Maybe you should alter the the color of the second EPR marker to have two distinct ones.

It's not as hard as I make it sound.</element>




HvyEng:
Legitimate outputs are doable with accurate FDE data, a "N1-EPR" table and a bit of gauge magic. I have in fact spent a metric ton of time and made Tom Ruth's 727 pretty much "flyable by the charts".
 
Bjoern said:
Well, you'd need to split the mouse area for the EPR bug knob into four mouse areas. Just take the existing two areas and split their height in half, then copy them and move their position downward by one time the new height. Then change the L: var of two of these mouse areas to "(L:EPRPRESET02, number)". Clone the EPR bug's entire "<element>" section and have (L:EPRPRESET02, number) drive its animation.
Maybe you should alter the the color of the second EPR marker to have two distinct ones.

It's not as hard as I make it sound.</element>




HvyEng:
Legitimate outputs are doable with accurate FDE data, a "N1-EPR" table and a bit of gauge magic. I have in fact spent a metric ton of time and made Tom Ruth's 727 pretty much "flyable by the charts".
Click to expand...

Bjoern... no, it's not hard at all....I was hoping for the hard way with the left click vs rightclick...adding 2 more areas is a doddle...I didn't need to ask about that...but rather what the syntax is in this 'different' XML [to which I am a novice] to use a second click ver.

I cannot change the bug's colour...as both are white in the F105, but are simply different shapes...[see the large pic above].... and the whole reason for doing all this with the bugs is to replicate the original/real, not make a cartoon imitation...;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top