Battle for Europe Mission 5

alpha_1

alpha_1

Charter Member
Raid on the Emden Sub Base......anybody got any tips on how to survive this one? I know that the prevailing theory for mass bombing raids was to stay in formation and fight the enemy off. In the sim, however, it's virtually impossible to do, as we don't have control of our guns. True we can shoot them, but aiming them is another matter entirely.

I must confess, I've flown the mission 4 times now, and after that lengthy flight it does become discouraging to get shot down in flames, bail out, get captured, or worse, not have my parachute deploy (yikes....the last one gives me shivvers!).

Should a guy break from the formation and dipsy doodle around, hoping to hit something? Any help with this one would be appreciated. I didn't see any friendly escort fighters around either. I set my AP to 15,000 at 200 mph and that worked great, I might add. What am I doing wrong here fellas?

Cheers!:jump:
 
Reply...

Alpha_1,

Now here's a lad that has taken things to heart. :salute:

As a matter of fact, before I got sidetracked by 'Frantic," I was (and still am) working on updating this. I can take another look at the escorts...(I think they're stationed above you) and perhaps add another one.

The escort is provided by P-47 Thunderbolts....let me have another look-see, and I'll try to find a solution.
 
Thanks

Thanks Rami......I had thought of bailing out over the channel if I had to just to complete the mission, lol, but that's a bad idea......I can't swim.

I think the campaign as far as I've got is pretty cool! A nice mix of different missions, so I'm keen to keep going.

I'll wait to hear from you. Thanks again.

Cheers!:jump:
 
alpha_1 brings up a good point on bomber missions.

AI bombers when we are the pilots of fighters have no problem shooting down enemy fighters.

Is there NOT a way in CFS2 to get our gunners when we are the bomber pilots to shoot down enemy fighters like our own AI bombers in formation do?

Perhaps increasing the accuracy of our brothers (AI) in formation with us? I am pretty sure that if the bomber gunners on each side and behind us were as accurate and deadly as AI Nell gunners in the stock sim, we could survive bombing missions much more often.
 
Reply...

Alpha_1,

I took another stab at mission 5, as promised. Basically, I added another flight of escorts. I hope that this will substantially help to increase the odds of survival. Give this a whirl, and it it doesn't help, I'll keep plugging away at it.
 
AI fighters only engage bombers from the six and sometimes the twelve o'clock positions, especially when engaging the player's bomber. Besides adding more escorts (with increased skill and aggressiveness) put another formation of bombers directly behind the player's flight at same altitude and very close to act as an additional shield and increase the tail gunners' engagement range to 1000 yards in the bomber's dp. Leave no gap between the player's formation and the additional trailing formation for interceptors to slip into for a closer shot at the player. Make the enemy work harder to get to the player...
 
Is there NOT a way in CFS2 to get our gunners when we are the bomber pilots to shoot down enemy fighters like our own AI bombers in formation do?
Click to expand...

There is a hack for CFS1 that does this, it enables you to aim guns with the mouse while flying with the stick, ah, CFS1 there are still some who indulge. I like the intro and music.

Sadly it doesn't work in cfs2 except maybe for multiplayer where the data stream is easier to get at, I'm not to sure it's been a while.

I believe the developers had been working on it, maybe the bugs were not ironed out at realese time. Does not CFS3 support player as tailend charley?

The sort of mod that would enable AI gunners on a player plane has been discussed before.

The easiest workable solution (not my idea) is just an extension of what Bearcat says. Instead of running an AI bomber formation immediately behind the player. Construct a model less AI ship to carry the gunstations that can run superimposed on the player. It would only be convincing if the AI and player stay on course. I wasn't running the experiment and never heard how it went.

Other solutions are tapoo on open forums
 
Bearcat, isn't there also a way to increase the accuracy of gunners? I knew about the increased range in the dp, but seems I read something somewhere about getting into the air file and increasing the accuracy and possibly the arc of the gunners firing cone?
 
Well, i guess the short answer would be to examine and copy the DP details of the tailgunner position from the stock Betty and especially that nasty Nell bomber by Jorge Alsina. They both share similar characteristics, above all very accurate fire with 20mm caliber and a healthy firing arc. The Nell has a 30 degree left right swivel limit, 50 degree elevation limit and 25 degree depression limit (which BTW also makes it vunerable from a low tail approach if you want to know how to kill it as an Allied interceptor). But this depression limit means nothing to non-creative AI interceptors since they only approach the six at a level plane to their target bomber. Moreover, the Betty.s 20 mike tail stinger has a dice of 1d1*30 and an engagement range of 1000 meters or 3280.83 feet -- now this is lethal stuff!

OK,with that said, you could dump the standard issue twin 50's in the US bombers and use the same parameters from these two aformentioned. In some strange way, the sim seems to enhance the accuracy of AI directed 20mm tail guns.

The question is: do you want to survive with the help of your wingmen's enhanced stingers or just be the dead purist? :pop4: :icon_lol:
 
Out of gas!

Hi all. Wellllll.......made the bombing run without seeing an enemy fighter. I substituted Hail Columbia for the Alpha b24 because I can handle the AP better.....but!!!!.......sow beetch, boys!...I ran outta gas on the way back and got misself kilt!:bump:

Ahhhh Welllll!.......Practice makes poifect, yes?:banghead:

Problem is.......I'll be over 70 yrs old by the time I git this one figgered out!:icon_lol:

Cheers!:jump:
 
Reply...

Alpha_1,

I think it may be the airfile....though the range estimates initially look solid. Let me fly it again.
 
Rami, I didn't check the air file but I think you're probably correct. The alpha plane can probably make it, whereas the Hail Columbia might need a bit of tweeking.

I await your research. It's a fantastic mission, by the way! Enjoy it very much.....lining up on the target, etc........great stuff!
 
Reply...

Alpha_1,

That B-24 will indeed make it, so long as you don't warp. If you add the "Tokyo tank," it can fly from Bengazi to Ploesti, Romania and back. If you can't make it on regular fuel, try the extra tank.
 
Thanks Rami......(sigh)......I'll hafta to hit the ol' "control+T" Button a few times. I did warp the mission thus the problem. Without warping or fast-framing, the mission is about an hour or so long, is it not?

Actually on a long mission like this one, I enjoy myself.....reading up on the bombsite, for example, was one of my li'l tricks (at normal speed with warping).....I also started reading a book on the Battle of the Airfields, Operation Bodenplatte, January, 1945 by Norman Franks. I think you'll find grist for the mill there, if you're interested.

This mission is kinda like the I imagine the real thing to be.....hours of boredom, seconds of sheer terror. (my AP went out as I made a turn onto the bomb run and I lost a lot of altitude in a heck of a hurry)......getting back into position in time was interesting.

Like I said, a most enjoyable mission. Thanks for taking the time to help me out with this.

Cheers!:salute:
 
bearcat241 said:
The question is: do you want to survive with the help of your wingmen's enhanced stingers or just be the dead purist? :pop4: :icon_lol:
Click to expand...


Since M$ did their AI enemy planes in a manner that is not really all that realistic, I have no problem tweaking that Allied flight dynamics to even the odds. So I will allow tweaked wingmen's gunners to do their utmost to keep me alive and well against enemy fighters. Even though dead heroes are recognized for their valor, they are still dead............................
 
Hey DD.....how does one go about doing that? I'd be inclined to give it a try as well, if I knew what to do.
 
Assuming that you are using the Alpha B24J as mission 5 calls for, you only need to change the the tail gun parameters in the dp's gunstations. What i've done with mine is modify the tail gun setup to represent a hybrid between the stock twin 50's and the Betty's single 20 mike. The parameters to modify are in red:

Here's the stock Betty:

[GUNSTATIONS]
gunstation.0=0,51,1,0.06,750,2,0.01,600,0,40,1d1*11,0,0,6.217,0,0,0,-25,25,25,-25,0.4
gunstation.1=1,52,2,0.12,555,2,0.01,1000,4,40,1d1*30,0,1.589,-2.526,0,0,0,-180,180,80,0,5
gunstation.2=0,54,1,0.06,750,2,0.01,600,0,40,1d1*11,-0.877,0.225,-6.14,0,0,-90,-75,75,75,-75,0.4
gunstation.3=0,55,1,0.06,750,2,0.01,600,0,40,1d1*11,0.877,0.225,-6.14,0,0,90,-75,75,75,-75,0.4

gunstation.4=1,57,2,0.12,555,2,0.01,1000,4,40,
1d1*30,0,0.001,-13.873001,0,0,180,-25,25,25,-25,5

gunstation.5=3,21,8,0.00,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
gunstation.6=5,62,32,0.00,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

[guns.0]
gun.0=1000,0,0,0.957000000000001,0,0,1,1000

[guns.1]
gun.0=1000,0,-2.89999999999999E-02,1.102,0,0,1,1000

[guns.2]
gun.0=1000,-0.848,-6.00000000000001E-03,9.99999999999446E-04,0,0,1,1000

[guns.3]
gun.0=1000,0.848,-6.00000000000001E-03,9.99999999999446E-04,0,0,1,1000

[guns.4]
gun.0=1000,0,0.001,-0.907,0,,0,1000

[guns.5]
gun.0=32,0,0,0,0,0,0,8

[guns.6]
gun.0=1,,,,,,0,

***************************************************************
***************************************************************
***************************************************************

Here's the stock Alpha B24J:

[GUNSTATIONS]
; Starboard Cheek Gun
gunstation.0=0,50,1,0.08,870,2,1,274,2,40,1d1*18,0,0.2,6.5,-0.19819,0,0,-90,90,60,-60,5.184
; Upper Gun
gunstation.1=0,52,1,0.08,870,2,1,274,2,40,1d1*18,0,2,0.8,-15,0,180,-180,180,65,-15,5.184
; Port Waist Gun
gunstation.2=1,54,2,0.08,870,2,1,274,2,40,1d1*18,-0.5,0,-7.6,15,-110,-110,-90,70,70,-70,5.184
; Starboard Waist Gun
gunstation.3=1,55,2,0.08,870,2,1,274,2,40,1d1*18,0.5,0.35,-7.8,-5,0,110,-70,90,70,-70,5.184
; Lower Gun
gunstation.4=1,56,2,0.08,870,2,1,274,2,40,1d1*18,0,-1.45,-5.2,5,0,180,-180,180,0,-90,5.184
; Tail Gun
gunstation.5=1,57,2,0.08,870,2,1,274,2,40,1d1*18,0,1,-13.25,-15,0,180,-15,15,45,-45,5.184
;
gunstation.6=3,21,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

[guns.0]
gun.0=400,-0.28,0,0.68,0,0,1,400
gun.1=400,0.28,0,0.68,0,0,1,400

[guns.1]
gun.0=400,-0.2,0,-0.68,0,0,1,400
gun.1=400,0.2,0,-0.68,0,0,1,400

[guns.2]
gun.0=350,-1.15,0.05,-0.25,0,0,1,350

[guns.3]
gun.0=350,1.2,0.1,0.1,0,0,1,350

[guns.4]
gun.0=400,0.35,-0.186,-1.212,0,0,1,400
gun.1=400,-0.35,-0.186,-1.212,0,0,1,400

[guns.5]
gun.0=400,-0.45,0.1,-1.23,0,0,1,400
gun.1=425,0.45,0.1,-1.23,0,0,1,425

[guns.6]
gun.0=16,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

***************************************************************
***************************************************************
***************************************************************

Here's my Alpha B24J mod:

[GUNSTATIONS]
; Starboard Cheek Gun
gunstation.0=0,50,1,0.06,890,2,1,1000,2,30,1d1*38,0,0.2,6.5,0,0,0,-90,90,60,-60,1.6
; Upper Gun
gunstation.1=0,52,2,0.06,980,2,1,1000,2,30,1d1*38,0,2,0.8,-10,0,180,-180,180,65,-15,1.6
; Port Waist Gun
gunstation.2=1,54,2,0.06,980,2,1,1000,2,30,1d1*38,-0.5,0,-7.6,15,-110,-110,-90,70,70,-70,1.6
; Starboard Waist Gun
gunstation.3=1,55,2,0.06,980,2,1,1000,2,30,1d1*38,0.5,0.35,-7.8,-5,0,110,-70,90,70,-70,1.6
; Lower Gun
gunstation.4=1,56,2,0.06,980,2,1,1000,2,30,1d1*38,0,-1.45,-5.2,5,0,180,-180,180,0,-90,1.6
; Tail Gun
gunstation.5=1,57,2,0.05,980,2,1,1000,2,30,1d1*38,0,1,-13.25,0,0,180,-35,35,45,-45,1.6
;
gunstation.6=3,21,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

[guns.0]
gun.0=400,-0.28,0,0.68,0,0,1,400
gun.1=400,0.28,0,0.68,0,0,1,400

[guns.1]
gun.0=400,-0.2,0,-0.68,0,0,1,400
gun.1=400,0.2,0,-0.68,0,0,1,400

[guns.2]
gun.0=350,-1.15,0.05,-0.25,0,0,1,350

[guns.3]
gun.0=350,1.2,0.1,0.1,0,0,1,350

[guns.4]
gun.0=400,0.35,-0.186,-1.212,0,0,1,400
gun.1=400,-0.35,-0.186,-1.212,0,0,1,400

[guns.5]
gun.0=400,-0.45,0.1,-1.23,0,0,1,400
gun.1=425,0.45,0.1,-1.23,0,0,1,425

[guns.6]
gun.0=16,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Its still essentially a twin 50, but with a dice of 1d1*38 per gun, a range of 1000 meters, a muzzle velocity of 980 m/s and an 0.05 rate of fire (20 rounds/second) times 2. I think its a pretty fair equalizer in comparison to what the Betty packs. My left-right swivel limit is 35 degrees and my elevation and depression limits are both at 45 degrees -- that's a very generous arc of defensive coverage for a bomber's six.

Go get 'em!!!:jump:
 
outstanding!

I'd like to use this if I may. Nice work! Can you send me the .dp file? I'd appreciate it, or I can copy and paste from here.
 
Like i said, you only need to change one line in the dp relative to the tail guns, so why not just copy/paste from here? Overwrite your existing tail guns line with mine.

I guess it also goes without saying, but if you want the other stations modded, feel free to copy/paste those as well.
 
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