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Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.
Best USAAF Escort Squadron of WWII?
- Thread starter Mach3DS
- Start date
FWIW, I Googled "best escort squadron of WWII" and came up with the following blurb on Wikipedia:
"Of the 179 bomber escort missions the 332nd Fighter Group flew for the Fifteenth Air Force, the group encountered enemy aircraft on 35 of those missions and lost bombers to enemy aircraft on only seven, and the total number of bombers lost was 27. By comparison, the average number of bombers lost by the other P-51 fighter groups of the Fifteenth Air Force during the same period[SUP] was 46."[/SUP][SUP]
It would certainly matter how one would define BEST.
[/SUP]
"Of the 179 bomber escort missions the 332nd Fighter Group flew for the Fifteenth Air Force, the group encountered enemy aircraft on 35 of those missions and lost bombers to enemy aircraft on only seven, and the total number of bombers lost was 27. By comparison, the average number of bombers lost by the other P-51 fighter groups of the Fifteenth Air Force during the same period[SUP] was 46."[/SUP][SUP]
It would certainly matter how one would define BEST.
[/SUP]
Mach3DS
Charter Member
Right. The Red Tails "never lost a bomber to enemy action" is a myth. However, they were very very effective. My guess is that they are probably among the top units. Considering the average. Possibly the "best". My only problem with that statistic is that it gives a specific count for the Tuskegee Airmen, and only an average for the rest. Which doesn't tell you if their 27 is part of the remaining average, the best score, or simply a specific count for that unit. That's a good question...not sure what the "best" is. I suppose in this case it would be the least number of lost bombers. I wonder if that info is even available...will have to do some digging....just thought I'd start here. first! Thanks for the replies.
icycle
SOH-CM-2024
Oof!, good luck on the journey (don't forget to keep your head down when the rocks start flying, some folks argue using big rocks!). I'm sure that this has debated (in some corners, warmly) in the 71 years since 1945.... As has been mentioned, depending upon how you define "best" will determine your answer, along with how tightly you define "escort", and whether your looking for squadron, or group. The 4FG, 56FG (8th AF) & the 332FG (15th - as mentioned) and I'm sure, others, each will received votes - depending on your definitions above. Within each, of course, the composite squadrons performance can differ substantially. So a lot of data to sift through, to say the least.
As stated, best of luck there, and will be interesting to see the conclusions drawn.
Best
Bill
Mach3DS
Charter Member
Couldn't agree more! I've been looking and it seems very difficult to find the info and being an amateur (at best) of WWII history seems like this may have been a can or worms....LOL....however that said, I'm totally open to all opinions...(but for those who haven't joined in yet...please let's keep it civil!) I'm not partial to any answer...just partial to data. Don't care what direction it points!
DaveQ
Charter Member
....and don't forget folks, there's lies, damn lies and statistics!
And to prove the point, what was the average percentage of missions that 8th AAF escort units encountered bandits? Red Tails = 20%. Also some 8th AAF units were in action a lot longer through some of the most intense periods of action from summer 1943 till spring 1944, and without the nine-league boots of the Mustang. That takes absolutely nothing away from the Red Tails, just the statisticians!! And the film of course, that was just painful
!
DaveQ
Hube Zemke's 56th FG had some of the best records for enemy aircraft destroyed, despite, or perhaps because of, sticking with the P-47 throughout the war.
And to prove the point, what was the average percentage of missions that 8th AAF escort units encountered bandits? Red Tails = 20%. Also some 8th AAF units were in action a lot longer through some of the most intense periods of action from summer 1943 till spring 1944, and without the nine-league boots of the Mustang. That takes absolutely nothing away from the Red Tails, just the statisticians!! And the film of course, that was just painful
!DaveQ
Hube Zemke's 56th FG had some of the best records for enemy aircraft destroyed, despite, or perhaps because of, sticking with the P-47 throughout the war.
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icycle
SOH-CM-2024
.... And don't forget the 78th, 352nd (Bodney), etc. etc....
At different times, each had "it's time in the sun" so to speak. Statistics are the source for much of the "half-truths" that get passed around, fore sure. Depending upon what you include, and what you don't include, and how you "filter" each will in many instances dictate which is "best" - (believe me, the Analytics COE where I work are past masters at this.....).
Just gives you a headache thinking of the permutations... I think I need a beer....
Bill
At different times, each had "it's time in the sun" so to speak. Statistics are the source for much of the "half-truths" that get passed around, fore sure. Depending upon what you include, and what you don't include, and how you "filter" each will in many instances dictate which is "best" - (believe me, the Analytics COE where I work are past masters at this.....).
- Is it lowest aircraft lost from escorted bomb groups?
- Do you include only aircraft lost to fighters (no flak losses)?
- Do you include the Doolittle's "Fighter Sweeps"? - they did "occupy/engage" Nazi fighters, and thus kept them away from the bomber stream, so a case could be made that, that is a form of "escort".
Just gives you a headache thinking of the permutations... I think I need a beer....
Bill