Bomber gunner.

Siggi-
I like your suggestion (if it doesn't give Winder too many headaches) because it really approximates real life. One of the greatest pleasures in OFF is downing a rookie and then encountering his mentor and having to fight for your virtual life. If the same kind of thing could be done for rear gunners- great! Someone else suggested a slider on rear gunner skill, which would allow each of us to choose how much trouble the 2 seaters would be.
 
Olham54 said:
2. the gunner could NOT shoot through the tail of the plane
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Strange...others have reported that gunners can shoot through the tail. I wonder why people are seeing different things? False perceptions perhaps, as Winder mentioned in another thread. Interesting.

My only experience with a 2-seater so far was a solitary FE2b in campaign. He had no trouble shooting me, and seemed to do so firing down and back through the pilot and the engine/prop. Not much to go on...one experience.

Guess I need to try some QC so as to experience some more two-seater attack scenarios for myself.
 
77 Scout-
Good suggestion. I took your advice and went into QC to attack a DFW with my SE5. I agree with Olham- the DFW rear gunner could NOT shoot thru the tail! I could hang below him at point blank range and could even move a little off from his center line in complete safety. However, if I got far enough off of center line so that I could see him, he could pepper me and at point blank range he was understandably pretty accurate.
I hope that if Winder adjusts the rear gunnery, he does it in a separate patch, not part of 1.2. I'd hate to forego the fixes in 1.2 but if dumbing down the rear gunner is part of the rev, I'll pass on it.
 
duck said:
the DFW rear gunner could NOT shoot thru the tail! I could hang below him at point blank range and could even move a little off from his center line in complete safety.
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That is good news Duck.

There were a few posts from the team a while back confirming that the gunners have no blind spots, but it seems like there actually are limitations on were they shoot. This is getting more interesting as we go along.
 
Yes, Scout and Duck, try some Quick Flights. And try rookies, veterans and aces. You'll probably see a difference.
It is obvious, that the rear gunner has blind spots, even if they are small.
But when the pilot does well, in bringing the plane into a good firing position for the gunner - you'll look damn old suddenly!

Me, I wouldn't shout "here", when they'd be looking for a pilot to attack them 2seats. But if it's an order - I'd try my best.
 
Well, I've tried both novice and veteran gunners now (one on one), and neither are unrealistically uber. Ace is silly though, he's the one that needs to be turned down. More than one though, you're going to be caught in a cross-fire, just like Sidney.

And I've not had a problem hiding under the blind spot of novice and veteran, but haven't tried that with ace yet.

I believe the only issue then is with gunners on ace mode, they can do the impossible. Remove them as gunners and I reckon that would sort it 100%.

My opinion only of course.
 
Good information siggi. I noticed that my two seater was on 'veteran' and he was tough enough (merciless when I got out of his blind spot). I like a challenge but my 'veteran' 2 seater was realistic enough. Removing ace sounds like a good solution. In fact, you've forwarned me that if I run into a gunner who seems preternaturally good, I'd best just break off like McCudden did. He got his score by using his head, something that has not been my forte. Of course, the stakes were a bit higher for McCudden than for me. I suppose that if the penalty forgetting shot down was that I could never play the game again, I'd probably break off more often...
Interestingly, when I'm in the back seat, I'm next to useless- there must be a classification below 'novice' for disasters like me!
 
Even the great Erich Hartmann (sorry, wrong war) scored more than a quarter of his victories (96 of 356!) on aircraft that were not fighters and he claimed that 80% of his victims didn't even know he was there.

All's fair in Love and War.
 
Yes, a Japanese ace said the same. He said, most of his victims only realised, he was there, when they got hit already.
As we all may have experienced here - that may then be too late! Engine sounds like being misused for grinding cobble stones - or the sweat, that you thought to wipe off, is red...
 
I posted this in another thread but got no replies. :crybaby:
...is it possible to make the hit boxes for rear gunners a little larger so it would be easier to wound or kill them and put them out of commission.

...I [also] suggest lowering the skill of the "ace" rear gunners to veteran or just above, reduce veteran slightly lower than they are now, and either leave rookies where they are, or make them just a tad worse.
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In limited testing, I am having a very hard time hitting the rear gunner. What are others experiences? If it is too difficult, I might suggest making their hit boxes a little larger. Would also give us another fun challenge to shoot at.
 
They are hard to hit, but unless their hit-boxes have been made smaller than their actual bodies I'd rather they were left alone. They're a small target, being shot at by a slow-firing MG from a moving platform into a moving platform. I don't think it should be easy, or even particularly possible to deliberately target one small bit (even though we do it). Spray & pray old chap. :)
 
Olham54 said:
We play "WW1 air combat" - von Richthofen didn't. He was at war, and had orders. Two seaters were reconnaissance planes to take photographs. They were bombers to attack targets. And they were artillery guides.

They sure were a priority target to eliminate../quote]

You are totally right Olham,

I've just finished reading Aces falling by Peter Hart (an excellent read)

He describes how vital those reconnaisance, bombing & artillery missions were for the "greater good" of the war - Its important to know whats on the other side of that hill, or where the enemies supply dumps or artillery batteries were so you could try & piece together where the next enemy offensive was going to strike. - in fact any info to help keep your own losses down & to maximise his to make the offensive stall & fail.

You can fly BHAH in two ways, one for the glory & accolades of shooting down enemies in vast numbers to become a grand flying ace, (some hopes in my case!! :redface:) or you can fly it as - for the want of better words, - an "Also Ran" not for glory, but to do your bit for king & country.

Two seaters are a VITAL target - the shooting down of just one can save the lives of hundreds of your own troops - obviously some two seaters are easier targets than others - such as the Be2 where although theres an observer, he sits in front of the pilot!

I've decided to try to be an "also Ran" for a while, & joined RFC2 flying BE2b's in 1917 - a great machine for giving 5 shilling trips to people so they can see the top of the village church roof, but not really fit for the purposes of war.

so far in 3 missions - one pilot KIA & 2 Crash landings - fortunately both our side of the lines!!!- I think im going to need an awful lot of pilots & machines for this :engel016:

P.S. for my twopenny worth I think It would be good to have the rear gunners on a "roll of the dice" principle where they were randomly rookie or switched on aces. - you never know who you're going up against in combat, (unless its one of those gaudy painted hun fighter jobs :whistle:)
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True, rear observers are small targets, but larger than the pilot. The pilot is all hunched down in his cockpit, while the gunner is frequently standing and leaning over the sides of the plane to check for enemies below. When shooting, he is often standing with his head to his hips exposed. I would guess almost twice the size of the pilot sitting down in his cockpit with just head and upper body exposed.

Just a brain f*rt about possible ways to make it easier to attack two seaters. Not a big deal, however. :jump:
 
A standing man might be a bit bigger target than a sitting one.
But don't we make the mistake to believe, the cockpit sides or the seat were any covering protection. The bullets would go right through the whole plane from behind. The only protection would be the engine.
Only in WW2, there came some steel plates in the pilot's back or cockpit floor, making the plane heavier again though.
 
Bomber/Gunner - Their one disadvantage

I have discovered one "tactic" that does somewhat mitigate the deadliness of 2-seater aircraft's rear gunner that may be considered a bit "gamey" but not overly so. It is somewhat linked to a prior post whereby the AI begins firing at 400 yards or some such. I've found that by staying at that distance and performing some "lazy S" maneuvers behind the 2-seater, I'll receive somewhat minimal damage from their guns. I am then patient for the gunner to use up all his ammo and then the two-seater becomes, effectively, defenseless.

Glad to see that there will be sliders for the front and rear gunner; however, I'm concerned that this unvoiced "gamey tactic" is somewhat problematic. It would be ideal if some type of algorithm could be written whereby AI gunners pull the trigger "less/more" frequently linked to the distance from target thereby mitigating the 400-yard tactic described. Chaps might want to try this approach and see if you still think significant 2-seater gunner tweaks are necessary.

Regards,
LeBlaque
 
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