Can someone make a scenery for Dover Cliffs?

[IanP]

It does indeed look excellent. However the cliffs are not, in fact, vertical. The fact that the chalk is so soft (and thus increasing the gap between Britain and France at quite a rate!) means that there are always chunks missing in various places. I'm not referring to a few metres square, either. I was watching a TV programme a short while ago discussing the chalk cliffs and that during a storm, it's not unusual for hundreds of cubic metres of chalk to fall away in uneven chunks.

What you've done there looks pretty close to what they were showing in close up shots... Except without the green bleed from the textures, obviously. :d

 

[huub vink]

The other side.....

Larry, I think the cliffs in your screenies look really amazingly good! I would really appreciate it if you could finish them.

Below some pictures from "the other side", which I took on my holiday 2 years ago. Perhaps they can be of some help.

The first picture shows the Dover Cliffs seen from Cap blanc nez.

Below Cap blanc nez seen fromcap gris nez

Below two pictures which show the structure of the cliffs at the French side. I presume this is similar at the British side.

The last picture is taken a bit further South. It shows the cliffs North of Treport harbour. As you can see the cliffs can be quite "vertical" also.

Thanks for all your efforts!

Huub

 

[BananaBob]

Man that's really looking good, great work! The screenshot possibilities around that area are endless. :ernae:

 

[spatialpro]

Ian,

You raise an interesting, and timely point! It just so happens I spent today surveying coastal landslides with GPS (not Dover though)!

My fieldwork and what you wrote also made me think about something else... The difference in time (approx. 1 year in this case) between the acquisition of the DEM and the acquisition of the orthophoto means that there is a mismatch to start with, simply due to erosion. This is of course in addition to the vertical/non-vertical issue.

Andy

 

[letsgetrowdy]

look amazing!
will this be compatible with default scenery though???

 

[Mathias]

The Bf110 was not a bad fighter, it was an interceptor seriously misused as a dogfighter. Use it to "bounce" an enemy formation, or allow it to fly in, blast, then run, and it was lethal. Try and dogfight with it, it had lost before it started because it couldn't turn as tightly or change speed as quickly. In other words, exactly the same as the vast majority of WW2 twin engined fighters.

.

Hmm, the Bf110 was much better than the post war legends tell.
During the BoB it was easy enough to shoot up an aircraft that was chained to limp with the bomber at 180 knots when you have the height and speed advantage. Infact every fighter is a sitting duck when used like that.
The loss per sortie rate of the Bf110 during the BoB was not higher than those of the single engined Bf109 frontline units.
The pilots themself considered their Bf110 an equal match against the Hurry at low altitudes and actually advantaged at higher altitudes. Mind you Britains icon Patt Pattle fell victim to a Bf 110 in a dogfight.
The reading "Bf109 protecting the Bf110 protectors" isn't quite right, either.
The Bf110 playd an important tactical role in that it formed a defense circle tie enemy fighters which could choose to go behind the Bf109 risking to get caught by a Bf110 or engaging the defense circle with low chance of getting a success. The reason why it was withdrawn from the BoB was because it was needed against the British bombers who began to attack German homeland at night, a task that the Bf109 was not able to fullfill.
Later in the med when the Bf110 saw it's last duty as a fighter it was holding it's own shooting down Hurricanes and P-38.
bottom line, sure not the ideal fighter but by far not as bad as often stated.

 

[spatialpro]

Thanks for all the great comments, plus the great questions.

will this be compatible with default scenery though???

Another good one! Strictly speaking, no, as it is photoscenery. But being pragmatic, YES, as either A) one could use just the high-res mesh alone; or B) the photoscenery is just a narrow strip and if correctly blended (!) it would work OK with the default FSX scenery (or UTX etc.)...

I hope that helps?

Andy

 

[Bjoern]

The reason why it was withdrawn from the BoB was because it was needed against the British bombers who began to attack German homeland at night, a task that the Bf109 was not able to fullfill.

Actually it was ("Wilde Sau"), but the larger Bf-110 was more effective, especially when fitted with radar.

 

[Mathias]

Actually it was ("Wilde Sau")

C'mon Björn, that was much later in a totally different environment.

 

[jdhaenens]

Keep on plugging, Andy and don't hesitate to ask if you need help!

Cheers!

Jim

 

[Bjoern]

C'mon Björn, that was much later in a totally different environment.

No, it wasn't.

Am Anfang experimentierte man mit dem von General der Nachtjagd Josef Kammhuber entwickelten Nachtjagdverfahren „Wilde Sau“.

Okay, it's only Wikipedia, but believe me, I've read it in the same canon at more than one other source.

 

[IanP]

So it had nothing to do with Goering's order that the Bf109s had to protect the Bf110s due to them having such a high casualty rate when used?

Hmm. Methinks there might be a distinct difference between German and Allied Historians on that one.

 

[Bjoern]

So it had nothing to do with Goering's order that the Bf109s had to protect the Bf110s due to them having such a high casualty rate when used?

I only know about the order to stick close to the bombers.

 

[Mathias]

No, it wasn't.



Okay, it's only Wikipedia, but believe me, I've read it in the same canon at more than one other source.

I was refering to initial trials of IV./(N) JG 2 by late '39/early'40 where the Bf109 was widestly without success.
The next try with the Bf109 as a nightfighter was by summer 1941, again without much success.

"Wilde Sau" was introduced by July/August 1943 by Hajo Herrmann's JG 300 which was according to my sources quite a bit after the BoB, and yes, in a considereably different environment with greatly improved communication and radar technology.

 

[IanP]

You presumably know about the instruction that there had to be three fighters for every bomber, after one day of particularly bad losses for the Luftwaffe?

According to all three of the BoB histories I've read recently, that was followed up by a raid where Bf110s were used to escort Dorniers, but they were operating at the edge of range and left the gunners behind to save weight. The Bf110s, in spite of forming a defensive circle, lost more aircraft than the bombers that they failed to protect did. Goering supposedly ordered that the Bf110s (his pet project) would only operate in future provided they had single engine fighters as a close escort themselves.

Had the Luftwaffe brought their full weight to bear on the RAF 11 Group airfields, none of them would have survived. With the requirements for fighters to escort bombers, fighters to escort fighters and the ongoing infighting within the Luftwaffe leadership, however, most of the bombers rarely flew because insufficient fighters were available to operate alongside them.

 

[Mathias]

So it had nothing to do with Goering's order that the Bf109s had to protect the Bf110s due to them having such a high casualty rate when used?

Hmm. Methinks there might be a distinct difference between German and Allied Historians on that one.

I think it's not about German or aliied historians but more about old and new researchers and beloved myths.
Not everybody who writes a book about a historical theme can be considered a historian.

 

[Mathias]

You presumably know about the instruction that there had to be three fighters for every bomber, after one day of particularly bad losses for the Luftwaffe?

According to all three of the BoB histories I've read recently, that was followed up by a raid where Bf110s were used to escort Dorniers, but they were operating at the edge of range and left the gunners behind to save weight. The Bf110s, in spite of forming a defensive circle, lost more aircraft than the bombers that they failed to protect did. Goering supposedly ordered that the Bf110s (his pet project) would only operate in future provided they had single engine fighters as a close escort themselves.

Had the Luftwaffe brought their full weight to bear on the RAF 11 Group airfields, none of them would have survived. With the requirements for fighters to escort bombers, fighters to escort fighters and the ongoing infighting within the Luftwaffe leadership, however, most of the bombers rarely flew because insufficient fighters were available to operate alongside them.

Yes, as I said, not the ideal fighter but yet they made the best of the situation developing the forementioned tactics. No prove though that the Bf110 was a total failure as often quoted.
And yes, the Bf110 had black days during the BoB, but so had the Bf109.

 

[spatialpro]

Okay, IF I were to make this scenery, where do people regard the "White Cliffs of Dover" start and end (east-west)??! Please be as specific as possible, as every extra bit of cliff would increase the filesize dramatically...

 

[Helldiver]

Vera Lynn's singing, "There'll be Bluebirds over the White Cliffs of Dover" symbolized all the Great Britain was gong through during the Battle of Britain and the subsequent raids, for all Americans.
The visions of Hurricanes and Spitfires dogfighting the awful Hun comes to mind. Anyone that remembers World War II can remember that song. "When Jimmy can go to sleep in his own litle room again" brought tears to all the women.
I can hardly wait until Andy releases it.

Therell be bluebirds over
The white cliffs of Dover
Tomorrow
Just you wait and see
I'll never forget the people I met
Braving those angry skies
I remember well as the shadows fell
The light of hope in their eyes
And though I'm far away
I still can hear them say
Bombs up...
But when the dawn comes up
Therell be bluebirds over
The white cliffs of Dover
Tomorrow
Just you wait and see
Therell be love and laughter
And peace ever after
Tomorrow
When the world is free
The shepherd will tend his sheep
The valley will bloom again
And Jimmy will go to sleep
In his own little room again
Therell be bluebirds over
The white cliffs of Dover
Tomorrow
Just you wait and see
Therell be bluebirds over
The white cliffs of Dover
Tomorrow
Just you wait and see...​

​

 

[spatialpro]

I can hardly wait until Andy releases it.

Wooo now... hold on, IF I decide to do this as a project! I've got a lot of other FSX projects on the boil, some working with other people who I don't want to let down (and who may be reading this thread!), so this project comes further down my list of priorities. I must focus!!

Having said that, I am very excited about it and if I do go for it I'll get it done as soon as I can.

I sound dreadfully non-commital don't I??!! My apologies...

Focus Andy, focus...!