Carrier Landing Basics

[Taco]

Hey Willy, looks like you are getting plenty of help, no help here, I like long and wide runways. hehe Looking forward to see the final results.

 

[Willy]

Hey Willy, looks like you are getting plenty of help, no help here, I like long and wide runways. hehe Looking forward to see the final results.

Should be plenty of flames and scrap aluminum before I get it sorted out.

 

[delta_lima]

Should be plenty of flames and scrap aluminum before I get it sorted out.

Say, that reminds me of the good old days when @Panther_99FS used to grace us with his comedic “how not land” screenshots. Somewhere along the line someone coined the phrase “panthered” for a bad landing. The man is a giant of a human being in all the ways that matter. Fun times. Good ole days.

As to technique, knowing the pattern is crucial to making a structured approach that sets you up at the correct altitudes and speeds for the main milestones of a good approach.

The patterns vary somewhat from WWII to modern, and certainly CATOBAR vs STOBAR boats, but picking a boat and learning its pattern will help immensely. Here’s the modern USN, as an example.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...mmons/9/95/USNavy_CV1_approach_to_carrier.jpg



Let us know how you get on!

 

[Daube]

Mr. Teeboy, if I may suggest a much better plane, if you want to fly Hornets, try the FSDT FSX BA F/A-18C v18.3. It outstrips any other plane out there, as far as Hornets go. I can provide a link to the download if you desire.

Now that sounds interesting.
What makes the FSDT BA Hornet so much better than the VRS one ? (ignoring the fact that one is a freeware Hornet, and the other is a payware Super Hornet, of course).
Last time I tried the BA Hornet, it still had an incomplete modelling of the VC, with many inactive switches/systems, and a lot of domains of the flight model were still being worked on.
But that was maybe two years ago. What's the status nowadays ?
For me, it's hard to imagine that bird doing anything better than the VRS (for which the only critic I ever saw was the speed at which it was accumulating the Gs, which was too fast or too low, I don't remember...)

 

[PhantomTweak]

They've got the FCS pretty well perfected now. Which is to say it flies very very much like the real C model Hornet. That's according to the real world Hornet drivers on the team. They're listed in the aircraft.cfg, if you want to verify anyone's credentials
The VC is really coming along nicely. I can't say every little switch is perfected, but a lot of them are. They even got the flaps switch to work properly.
Since they've moved all it's functions to the DDIs, the HUD Control Panel is going to go away with the next update, due maybe September or October. Depends on how fast Jimi and Orion can code

Mainly, though, is the difference in the FCS from the last one you tried. It really rocks now!
The BA one has an FCS that's coded into the HornetFCS.dll file, and it uses a PID controller, very much similar to the real one. The VRS doesn't have that sort of system. Orion has really rocked on this thing. It took a long time, and a lot of trial and error with the PID controllers in the aircraft.cfg to really zero it in.

Like you said, though, it's FREEWARE. What can it hurt to download and give it a try? Worst case scenario, you don't like it, and delete it.
It's import, too, to make sure you have all the ancillary files installed. The Simconnect, the .NET Framework, all that fun stuff. Especially the F18.dll file. It comes with FSX, so you SHOULD have it, but if it's not in the FSX\Gauges folder, you need to put it there.
If you DON'T have all the ancillary stuff, you'll get a big red FCS FAIL message on the HUD, and the FCS is such a big part of this plane's advantage that it's a big fat deal, you know?

Anywho, give a try! What the heck, right?
Pat☺

 

[expat]

Revisited the FSDT F-18 Hornet recently and agree its special and in a class of its own - once you get used to the FCS it is an easy jet to fly. Very good trainer for flying jets onto carriers in FSX or P3D. Using vLSO I was able to get some - not all - decent trap sessions.

 

[teeboy]

Originally Posted by PhantomTweak




Mr. Teeboy, if I may suggest a much better plane, if you want to fly Hornets, try the FSDT FSX BA F/A-18C v18.3. It outstrips any other plane out there, as far as Hornets go. I can provide a link to the download if you desire.


Pat☺





Have looked at the threads for this numerous times. I use P3Dv4 now for the most part so would it work atm? That .dll would be a no-go if its from FSX for instance. Shame, as I really want a legacy F-18. Love the VRS because its got such a lovely VC (and I spent many, many £'s on buying it and Tacpack!) and great fps on my slightly elderly pc. If it is P3Dv4 compatible then a link would be very well received, thank you.

Pat, I will add that is your obviously enormous enthusiasm for naval aviation that got me interested in the first place, just took a while to pluck up the nuts to have a go and get everything set up. Thank you for that in particular

Nick

Edit - Ah, just found what I wanted on the FSDT forums - P3D v4 compatible (even if all the avionics aren't quite there yet!).

 

[Cees Donker]

Highly recommended is the Etendart IV which you can dowload from royalefrenchnavy.restauravia.fr/
Look at Creations RFN.
You'll need the RFN Carrier Gauge too.
Take a look at the Foch and the Clemenceau and the Charles de Gaulle! All wonderfull stuff just for free!
Don't forget the Breguet Alizé!

Cees

 

[menef]

Oh boy! One of my favorite subjects!



Mr. Teeboy, if I may suggest a much better plane, if you want to fly Hornets, try the FSDT FSX BA F/A-18C v18.3. It outstrips any other plane out there, as far as Hornets go. I can provide a link to the download if you desire.

Have fun all!
Pat☺

Hi Pat, I fully agree, even if personally I'd suggest to stick with the version V 17.1.31 because , as I've reported months ago at FSDT forum, the V18.3 has a little bug about the HSI / CSEL, in other words, at least in FSX, it's impossible
to set a desired course and the HSI doesn't work correctly
Regards

 

[Victory103]

@Willy, I think you got a good start with the above suggestions, although it seems you are looking to do boat ops with WWII era aircraft? Pretty good selection of freeware CVs out, vLSO is free, RFN TACAN gauge is free....wait you just need some airframes! I'm a fast-mover boat flyer, but need to look back and start adding the classic straight decks and more planes with spinning things on the nose.


@PhantomTweak, long time user of the VRS and remember way back when "Sludge" re-vamped the stock Hornet, but the FCS logic between the 2 aircraft are pretty different animals. Fully support jimi's efforts given his limited time and resources for this pretty massive project. Do you have DCS? I could almost start another thread on the DCS Hornet when it comes to flying it.

 

[dhasdell]

Oh great! It's not enough that the things are moving about, now they're going up and down too!

That's what 825 FAA Squadron Swordfish found on their return to Victorious after attacking and hitting Bismarck. It was pitch black, there was a rain squall and the deck was rising and falling 50 feet. Flying Stations do a nice Swordfish.

 

[tgycgijoes]

The Good ol' Days at NAS Chicago (Glenview) 1943

You can find and download the Wolverine / Sable; place them on Lake Michigan and try landing Wildcats or Dauntlass's. If you want them and can't find them I have them archived along with freeware F4F's and SBD's. Technically it IS possible to use the vLSO for them though he doesn't have "paddles". I was so hoping that with the advent of new technology someone would create a WWII LSO. How COOL would that be? I think that VRS Enterprise CV6 HAD one but he was part of their carrier program. The LSO used paddles I believe all the way through 1960 Wikipedia says 1955 first use. (see below link)
The movie with Henry Fonda and Van Johnson "Yours, Mine and Ours" uses the USS Hornet and their project was the new FLOLS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_landing_system

 

[PhantomTweak]

I was so hoping that with the advent of new technology someone would create a WWII LSO. How COOL would that be?

That would be cool indeed!
It's been suggested to Paddles, the vLSO author, but he doesn't want to tackle that little bit of software. He's come close to having vLSO as good as it will get, and the AI LSO's as grumpy and mean as they can get

He's doing as best he can, but making a guy stand there waving his arms is just beyond his abilities, I think. Not to mention his desires

Pat, I will add that is your obviously enormous enthusiasm for naval aviation that got me interested in the first place, just took a while to pluck up the nuts to have a go and get everything set up. Thank you for that in particular

I'm glad you got infected too

Have fun all!
Pat

 

[Willy]

Haven't had much time to do the install yet. But I was wondering how does one get the aircraft to stop on the deck?

In FS9 I used an early version of carrier ops gauges that would work wherever the aircraft was. My AH Seafires still have those installed and when I try to use them in FSX, let's just say the results have not been encouraging (ripped the wings off on landing last night).

 

[delta_lima]

No gauges needed.

So long as you have Acceletaration installed correctly, and tailhook and launch entries in the aircraft.cfg, then any aircraft can launch and recover on a moving carrier.

These settings can adjusted, and there’s enhancements to reduce the launch speed of slower aircraft to more realistic speeds versus faster ones, but I’d suggest getting the basics going first.

Bottom line, way less mucking about than in the old ARRCAB days, good as that was, before the onset of moving carriers.

There’s also a few (very few) 1950s USN straight deck Essex-class carriers, and a few more wwii era boats that will probably be where you want to operate from.

 

[Bjoern]

Just what is needed for them?

1. Approach carrier just outside of the pattern envelope because you can't fly for crap on your measly home computer and do 5000 things at the same time
2. Prop yourself up in the virtual seat until your virtual helmet touches the virtual canopy
3. Curse that you still can't see anything over the nose
4. Adjust heading to approach the centerline of the strip, not the center line of the ship
5. Add power to not fall out of the sky
6. Reduce power to actually keep descending
7. Ignore vLSO commands
8. Ignore mirror landing system cues
9. Constantly increase the volume of your internal screaming with decreasing distance to flightdeck
10. Panic and add 0.001% too much power because you're 0.0000001% too low and about to slam into the ship's stern
11. Overcorrect because you're too high now
12. Slam the thing onto the deck like the keg of beer on the table when retelling your flying heroics
13. MOST IMPORTANTLY: Slam the throttle levers forward just upon touchdown
14. Pray you've caught a wire - any wire will do
15. Curse that you're going over the deck and into the air again or that you've actually caught a wire and now look like a fool
16. Rinse, repeat and remember that the more often you try, the worse you will perform


Easy mode: FSXBA F/A-18C on any Enterprise/Nimitz class carrier.
Medium: RFN Étendard IV on the Foch.
Hard: F-4 on any of Her Majesty's Postage Stamps.

 

[MrZippy]

@ Bjoern

10. Panic and add 0.001% too much power because you're 0.0000001% too low and about to slam into the ship's stern


More than 1 time I have been too low and wound up in some squadron's ready-room with everyone staring at me!

 

[Mike71]

You can find and download the Wolverine / Sable; place them on Lake Michigan and try landing Wildcats or Dauntlass's. If you want them and can't find them I have them archived along with freeware F4F's and SBD's. Technically it IS possible to use the vLSO for them though he doesn't have "paddles". I was so hoping that with the advent of new technology someone would create a WWII LSO. How COOL would that be? I think that VRS Enterprise CV6 HAD one but he was part of their carrier program. The LSO used paddles I believe all the way through 1960 Wikipedia says 1955 first use. (see below link)
The movie with Henry Fonda and Van Johnson "Yours, Mine and Ours" uses the USS Hornet and their project was the new FLOLS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_landing_system

FLOLS was a great improvement over the original mirror system, and operated on some very different principles. As best I recall, I made my first CQ (T-2A) and later, fleet traps between 1966 and 1969 using the mirror on old ESSEX 27C's. On JFK's first deployment in 1969 we had a FLOLS, which at the time did not have inertial "heave" (vertical hull CG motion) sensing, but was still a lot better than the mirror, especially at night.

I'd like to add that a lot of us take inertial systems capabilities with about as much admiration as we do a AAA battery these days, but their development has been astounding. Early A-6, and F-111 systems were very unreliable (failure rates), and Carrier SINS (Ship Inertial Nav System) was not great either. That can be a problem trying to get initial alignment info for early CV tactical airplanes. Theoretically, you had a SINS cable plugged into your plan after starting, and the cable fed accurate info to align your INS as the ship was moving through the water on a straight course. Due to frequent SINS problems, too often we had to align an A-6 using handwritten data on a chalkboard, held up by a Flight Deck crewman, who was constantly getting an update from the Navigator on the Bridge, which obviously was based on a good bit of DR.

The idea that a commercial airliner would routinely be equipped with 2 or 3 INS's and that they were all so reliable would have been laughed at by any of us back then, but - time marches on.

I am not to sure how much better the INS on our "boomer" subs was then.

 

[PhantomTweak]

But I was wondering how does one get the aircraft to stop on the deck?

Ummm...Use the tailhook? As a general rule, they stop planes nicely.

In FS9 I used an early version of carrier ops gauges that would work wherever the aircraft was. My AH Seafires still have those installed and when I try to use them in FSX, let's just say the results have not been encouraging (ripped the wings off on landing last night).

For FSX with Acceleration, forget the gauges entirely. Remove them, comment them out, what ever, but turn them off. They conflict with the functioning of the Accel features in a bad way.
If the plane's model isn't written for FSX, add the [Tailhook] and [Launchbar] sections to the aircraft.cfg yourself. Otherwise, iow if the plane's model IS written for FSX Accel, just add the [Tailhook]. You may, or may not, need to adjust the settings in it for certain conditions. A lot of devs don't set the [tailhook] section of the plane's model file correctly. They seem to get the launchbar settings right, but not the tailhook for some reason.

Just remember, if you add the two sections to the aircraft.cfg, they over-write the entries in the model file. That's why I usually don't worry about the launchbar settings. If the plane gets dragged off the end of the deck by the catapult, it works fine.

Trapping is an entirely different subject.
Aside from the wonderful "how-to" instructions written by Bjoern above (ahem...), the [tailhook] settings have major effects on how the plane traps. Each line affects a different aspect. For example,
tailhook_length=4 ;(feet)
Can determine, in combination with the two main gear contact point vertical settings, if the tailhook is positioned correctly, vertically, for the plane to grab the wire at the correct AOA. Too long, the plane can approach too flatly, and even then, the hook may skip the wires. Too short, and the plane will never grab a wire, which is very annoying!
cable_force_adjust= 0.59
Will determine just how hard the wire decelerates the plane. Too high, and the wings rip off, just for example Too low, and the plane will run off the end of the deck, and dangle by it's hook. Makes getting out of the plane to grab a slider in the Dirty-Shirt Wardroom very difficult.

I won't get started on the effects of the tailhook_position= line here. I could write an entire post about that alone. Let's just say that it's THE most critical of the three settings, and can have the greatest, or most detrimental, effects.

We spent a lot of time, and trial and error, getting the [tailhook] settings, in combination with the [Contact_points] section, of the FSX BA Hornet right, but it IS right. For that particular airplane.

If we presume a plane is set up properly for the recoveries aboard, then technique is most critical to making a decent recovery. Mainly, the correct speed and AOA of the plane, the correct weight of the plane for recovery aboard, the correct WOD, and so on. Whether or not you "flare" for recovering aboard the boat. DON'T. Navy plane do NOT flare for landing, boat or shore. Descend at about 7-800 FPM, making certain the AOA is correct for the plane's weight and speed, etc. All the way to the deck. Don't flare, slow the descent, any of that. There's a reason it's known as a "controlled crashed"...
I would respectfully suggest getting a copy of the plane's NATOPS, or whatever the Brits call it, and read the section on "how to" make a recovery aboard the ship. It's in there, and very informative. I can give you a link to the F/A-18's NATOPS, or the ones for the F-14, and T-45, as well, should you desire. As to the WWII prop jobs, I never looked, but Google may be your friend in this case.
I know for a certainty that the BA Hornet is designed to be as close to the NATOPS as possible. Thus, reading NATOPS will prove very useful. Same for Dino's planes. I can't speak to any others, although the Alpha-Blue Ciel Corsair seems very close to the instructions given for it that I can find.

One thing I can offer, though: When landing a prop job aboard, you chop the throttle upon, or just before touchdown, but with jets, you go to full throttle when the main gear touch down, until you are sure the wire has taken hold, and the plane will stop, then chop it to idle, and apply the brakes, very quickly. If you bolter, no problem, you're at full power so you fly away to try again. If the wire has ahold, and stops the plane, well, you are there. Unfortunately, FSX doesn't simulate the wires perfectly, and VERY shortly after fully stopping the aircraft, it is released again. Thus, the need to go to idle and apply the brakes once you're sure you will stop. If you don't, you will drive right off the end of the deck, even with the brakes applied.
A side note to all that: If you do bolter, make sure you shut off the AB's, if the plane has them, once you start to climb. Keep the Velocity Vector in the HUD on the Waterline. Shft+F4 will do the trick, if you use the keyboard, and used F4 to go to full throttle. If you have a throttle you use of some other kind, just back off until the AB's go out. Monitor the engine instruments. Part of the 5000 things you need to do Bjoern mentioned.
If you stay in AB, you will probably overspeed the gear, and maybe the flaps, on planes that aren't the Hornet. The FCS of the Hornet will take care of the flaps automatically for you, but not the gear.

Ok, ok, I'll shut up now. Sorry for all my babbling...
Pat☺

 

[Bunkiester]

I have an addition to Bjoern's list:

17: Don't panic when your cat jumps on your lap just as you cross the round down... (sigh).

Just happened to me trying to put the Vertigo Avenger down on HMS Unicorn. Let's just say I filled out my A25... !

Mark