Carrier Landing Basics

[MrZippy]

Can someone please buy Pat a beer! We need to loosen him up so he'll say more than just a few quick words!

Just yanking the chain a little, Pat

 

[edakridge]

Pat, don't let them get you down! LOL

I am a terrible typist, so my posts are normally pretty short. I love it when someone is eloquent enough to put all those thoughts into words!

 

[Willy]

Okay, I still haven't found a launchbar section in either VS SBD or the default Hornet. But I have been mucking about with the SBD and trying to land on that stationary carrier off of San Francisco. So far the results have been ugly and I need a dryer big enough to put the SBD in.

 

[delta_lima]

Okay, I still haven't found a launchbar section in either VS SBD or the default Hornet. But I have been mucking about with the SBD and trying to land on that stationary carrier off of San Francisco. So far the results have been ugly and I need a dryer big enough to put the SBD in.

I should have mentioned this earlier but didn't want to muddy the waters with exceptions.

Some FSX native aircraft have the launch section baked into the model - hence why you can't find it in the aircraft.cfg. This is the case with the default Hornet, and might be with the SBD - I don't own it, not sure.

If you have AI Carriers installed, you can launch and recover any carrier-equipped plane from any carrier that's been thus equipped. Shift U (the keys I use, can't recall if that's default or if I changed it - been years) - lowers the launch bar (on the Hornet and some more modern planes like the A-7 that had them). Shift I to arm the catapult, and CTRL Space to launch. Works flawlessly for me, for launches.

Recovery is as per the pattern, and coming aboard on speed. Curved / crabbed approaches for taildraggers helps with visibility. Once you're aligned, use power for maintaining altitude, minor adjustments for attitude, AoA. No flares or settling - fly on power the whole way down the wire. I'd suggest if you're crashing that consistently, hangar the Seafire for a few weeks' maintenance. That thing was nasty as a carrier plane for the inexperienced, and next to nothing right about it, from a suitability for carrier use point of view. Again, if bad landings routinely exceed your good landings, some FCLP practice is in order.

Approach flying skill aside, the biggest obstacle is your use of a static carrier - by flying onto a non-moving carrier, physics is working completely against you. You're not letting the moving carrier give you that 25kt speed differential to give you a controlled, smooth (in carrier terms) landing. Landings always happen on a moving ship for a reason. And where possible, into the wind. So, in keeping with Phantom pointed out regarding the tailhook, the arresting action is working against you - the unduly high landing speed (relative to the carrier) is making everything bone-jarringly violent when it needn't be.

Again - rethink your plane, at least for now. Wozza's freeware SNJ is a good stable trainer for 40s-50s naval period. Dial in some wind over the deck (reciprocal course to your approach), and of course ensure the carrier is moving. It's been a while, but if my memory of the SNJ is correct, at min fuel and full flaps, you'll be making approaches in the range of 67 kts. Subtract your carrier's speed of 25kts and even mild wind of 8 kts - that's now only a 34kt speed differential with respect to the carrier. Should be doable. If you're still struggling, fly the Flying Stations Swordfish - you'll almost be chasing the carrier, it lands so slow. Either of the FSX (Ant or Piglet) T-28 would be even better choices, in that with nosegear, your attitude affords better visibility. Rock steady, and a superb confidence builder.

I wish I could suggest an instant magic solution - but there's no replacement for starting slow, and working up - that's the fastest way to get good. Starting with fast aircraft and bad habits is just a long frustrating road that prevents you from getting good. YMMV ... Enjoy the journey.

dl

ps - Pat/PhantomTweak, thanks for some great tips. And for your participation in Jimi's FSXBA project. Until (if?) I get the VRS Hornet, that model is my Hornet of choice. And yes, it feels like cheating, how straight forward the handling is, when flown to weight and speed. Not a big glass cockpit guy, but that one is a keeper, by a long shot. Thanks again.

 

[Daube]

In FSX-native models, some 3D parts can be tagged as arrestor hook or launch bar. In that case, the corresponding sections in the aircraft.cfg become useless.
If a launch bar or arrestor hook sections are added manually into the aircraft.cfg of a plane, they will then be considered in priority one, over the ones defined in hte 3D model. But this is usually not recommended.

EDIT: Delta Lima was faster

 

[PhantomTweak]

Bunkiester

I have an addition to Bjoern's list:

17: Don't panic when your cat jumps on your lap just as you cross the round down... (sigh).

Just happened to me trying to put the Vertigo Avenger down on HMS Unicorn. Let's just say I filled out my A25... !

Mark​

Been there! We have 4 furbabies, and 2 of them have a passion for my lap. But only when I'm about to stand up to go to the head or something like that. I love them all, but I get frustrated with them sometimes...

Willy

Okay, I still haven't found a launchbar section in either VS SBD or the default Hornet. But I have been mucking about with the SBD and trying to land on that stationary carrier off of San Francisco. So far the results have been ugly and I need a dryer big enough to put the SBD in.​

Like I said, most devs build the launchbar and tailhook right into their 3D model file for the plane. Not to mention, SBD's don't use launchbars, or a cat. They get the boat steaming into the wind as fast as she'll go, rev the engine while holding the brakes, then let go and fly off the deck. Hornet's, obviously, are a different kettle of fish. But there may not be a launchbar section in the aircraft.cfg. I wager there's a tailhook section, but I haven't looked at the default Hornet since I first found the FSX BA Hornet. Did I mention that the FSX BA team that's making these new planes is the same team that developed the default plane? Think about it.

To make a good landing with the SBD, try using an AICarriers capable straight deck carrier. They're out there. Heck, I think the library here at SOH has at least a couple. Anyway, set the carrier in motion so t's moving forward, creating some WOD (Wind Over the Deck). If you want, add a few knots wind down the deck with the built in weather engine. It helps. Make sure the wind in coming down the deck heading in the correct direction. Don't have it coming from the fantail, make sure it comes from bow towords stern! It can be tricky, to get the firection of the wind just right. The weather engine shows the wind direction in magnetic north, but when you OK out to the initial weather screen, it's displayed in True North. You'll have to do a little trial-and-error correcting to get it just right.
Make sure you're going the right speed, and have the proper weight to land. Ensure you keep the correct AOA for the plane's weight and speed. Use the correct, curving approach the props had to use, because they couldn't see over the nose otherwise. AOA is vital to ensure the hook and main gear have the proper relation to one another. Too high, and you will get an "in-flight engagement", where the hook grabs while the mains are still up in the air. Makes for a real hard touchdown as the hook slaps you out of the sky. Usually drives the struts up through the wings, which is really hard on planes. Too low, and the hook may well skip all the wires entirely.
The more modern fighters, jets, don't have that problem. Seeing over the nose, that is. And you can always raise your viewpoint some to see better. The BA Hornet, as well as the T-45 and F-14 from Dino, you can see the FLOLS and the deck fine from the default view point.
Keep the Velocity Vector (tadpole) on the deck, just ahead of the #4 wire, keep the AOA correct, which keeps the speed and plane's angle of approach correct to grab the #3 wire. Again, use a carrier that is AICarriers usable, set it in motion, and add wind to make the proper WOD for that plane. The Hornet needs at least 35 knots. I'd have to check the NATOPS for the other two planes to verify what they need.
A trick, that works very well to keep you lined up on the angle deck's centerline, but drives LSO's nuts, is to place the tadpole on the ship's "crotch". That small area between the end of the angle deck, and the side of the forward deck edge. As the boat moves forward, and the wind blows against your plane, the Angle deck's centerline will move from your left to right, perforce. Aiming at the ship's crotch makes your plane move in a very similar fashion, so when get to in-close, you'll be right on the centerline. A small rudder input to line up, and bang, you're down.

Another thing you might check for the SBD, BTW, is the cable_force line in the tailhook section of the aircraft.cfg. Try increasing it a couple tenths. That may be necessary for that plane.

Now, it's time for me to go grab a beer, and then head to bed. Maybe it'll help me with writing longer, more intelligent, posts, to keep Zippy happy

Good luck!
Pat☺

 

[heywooood]

Umm the Dauntless would never have had a launchbar and was never catapulted.
In WWII there were no aircraft than needed a catapult unless they were on a battleship..and no Dauntless was ever carried there that I know of.
You just need a straight deck carrier and about 15 - 20 kts of headway or 25-30 kts of wind over the bow.

 

[dhasdell]

In WWII there were no aircraft than needed a catapult unless they were on a battleship

l don't think that can be right. If it were, then why on earth were carriers as early as the USN Lexington and RN Courageous fitted with them, not to mention later wartime fleet and many escort carriers?

In 1944 Saratoga had two new catapults installed, primarily to enable her to operate TBMs. (Chesnau : "Aircraft Carriers of the World")

 

[expat]

But I have been mucking about with the SBD and trying to land on that stationary carrier off of San Francisco. So far the results have been ugly

Hey Willy - I don't think you will get anywhere with the ugly old stationary carrier off of S.F. Bay. It is just a scenery bgl and the "built in" launch and trap functionality you get with FSX - and not with FS9 - I think will only work with a ship model that is a simobject i.e., not too different from an AI aircraft. We really need you set up with AI carriers, then you will see the world is your oyster, as you can spawn a single cv or carrier group anywhere in the world - and they all move! As a warbird fan you will find a good choice of WW II straight deck Essex and other boats to practice on. Happy trapping!

 

[Willy]

Thanks guys, that explains why the SBD will slow down on the deck, but not stop. Actually most US Navy carriers in WW2 did have cats. Some of the pre-war ones had cats in the hanger bay to launch aircraft out the side of the ship. Apparently those didn't work so good as they were removed during the war if the ship survived long enough.

The VS SBD has a tail hook lever in the VC. It also has an entry in the aircraft.cfg for the tail hook. Stall speed is 64kts, so I've been coming in around 70 to 80kts. I was trying the big deck as I know that I'm a few years out of practice setting one down on a deck and wanted a big target at first. In FS9, if it had a flight deck, I could land on it with the old D-ware SBD.

Now to find the time without being interrupted to install AICarriers. Which is kind of hard to do around here.

 

[Willy]

As for straight decks, I found an AI for USS Saratoga CV-3. Just looking at the textures, it appears to be Paul Clawson's old static one from FS9 that someone has reworked the model. I'm hoping it will work out as advertised as the Lexington and Yorktown class pre-war CVs have always been favorites of mine.

 

[delta_lima]

Hey Willy - I don't think you will get anywhere with the ugly old stationary carrier off of S.F. Bay. It is just a scenery bgl and the "built in" launch and trap functionality you get with FSX - and not with FS9 - I think will only work with a ship model that is a simobject i.e., not too different from an AI aircraft. We really need you set up with AI carriers, then you will see the world is your oyster, as you can spawn a single cv or carrier group anywhere in the world - and they all move! As a warbird fan you will find a good choice of WW II straight deck Essex and other boats to practice on. Happy trapping!

Thanks Ex. I assumed he was still using arrcab off that one. If not, that’s why he neither launch nor recover. Yeah Willy - forget those ugly statics. There’s a couple of nice Essex boats here, both wartime and Korean War era. That will get you rolling nicely.

Re catapults, yes some launches were sans catapult-chiefly off smaller class carriers like the Independence class that didn’t have them. But cats were in use on the bigger Essex class carriers, as seen here:

 

[Daube]

Fortunately the installation of AICarriers (the .NET one) is quite easy. Just install it with an easy destination path, like c:\AICarriers, for example.
This will make it easier to add in the EXE.xml file later

By default, AICarriers will allow you to manipulate the default FSX carrier. The interface looks the same as the ATC window, excepted you get choices of boats to appear. And once you selected a boat, it asks for location (current position of your plane, 5 nm ahead, 10 mm ahead etc...).
Once the boat appears, you get different choices, to make it move (forward, stop, turn right/left 10 degres, turn right/left 90 degres...)
Very easy to understand. I love that program.

 

[Willy]

Ok, I'm stumped. I know about as much about xml as my dog, Sassy. It's supposed to work with SE, correct?

Added the AI Carriers folder with the path c:\AI Carriers. Seems to be all nestled in and at home there. In the folder with the with FSX.cfg file was an exe.xml file and I added the sample exe lines from the AI Carriers folder as follows:

<SimBase.Document Type="Launch" version="1,0">
<Descr>Launch</Descr>
<Filename>exe.xml</Filename>
<Disabled>False</Disabled>
<Launch.ManualLoad>False</Launch.ManualLoad>
<Launch.Addon>
<Name>AICarriers</Name>
<Disabled>False</Disabled>
<ManualLoad>False</ManualLoad>
<Path>c:AI Carriers</Path>
</Launch.Addon>
</SimBase.Document>

There was a previous entry in the .xml for something else and I added the AI Carriers bit with a line space in between.

Started up FSX SE, went to a saved flight with the SBD off the coast of San Francisco. In the drop down menu of FS under add ons , there's only FSUIPC. Tried the shift J thing from the readme, still no joy. The only thing I can think of would be having to totally restart the comp which I haven't tried yet.

 

[Daube]

Your path is incomplete: the full value should be C:\AICarriers\AICarriers.exe

 

[Butcherbird17]

+1 on what Daube posted. It's the first thing I noticed.

Joe

 

[expat]

Willy, also be sure the straight deck boats you download are all native FSX models otherwise they won't work. Lazarus here kindly did some of CG Shipyards Essex boats (Valley Forge, Boxer) + there is a very good WWII scheme CV-9 USS Essex - all here in the Library. Search under "FSX ships."

 

[Willy]

Thanks guys! I guess as my Social Security starts this month, I'm allowed a senior moment or six. Off to make the changes.


I haven't added any carriers yet. One thing at a time.

 

[Willy]

Still no joy. Just to make sure I'm not doing it wrong, I've started up FS, went to a saved flight with the SBD off the coast and clicked on the add on's part of the menu across the top of the screen. The only thing showing in the drop down is FSUIPC. There was mention in the Read Me about hitting shift-j. No joy there either.

Okay, if a picture is worth a thousand words, here's what I'm looking at..

 

[Willy]

Woo! Hoo! Progress!!!

Ok, I've got it working somewhat I think. I can get the ships to show up, but they're not moving. And the SBD does come to a full stop when a wire is caught although from the VC it looks like I'm going to nose over while stopping.