Chinese GP 2013: Will the seb hit the fan..?

[wombat666]

And you don't think the boring races were the result of one team being (too) far ahead in technology...?

I was using the FW15C as an example Ferry, and remember, it wasn't totally dominant due to teething problems and Senna's brilliant drives at most events.
We need the cutting edge of technology that this cars exemplifies, even if it pushes the opposition to the edge.
Williams were about to introduce their CVT transmission when [predictably] the FIA banned it.
Considering the fact that we can walk into a dealership today and buy a relatively modest daily driver running a T/C Diesel, a 6 speed Auto transmission, AWD drive, ABS and Stability Control, why are these not allowed in today's 'Formula 1'?
If I want 'Parity' in racing I'll watch Formula Ford, although I still believe there is and never has been a 'Level Playing Field' in Motorsport.
I'll get orf me soapbox now!


PS: Unconfirmed (sort of) reports on our evening news have Webber departing F1 for a 5 year contract with Porsche in the WEC, but we expected that one anyway.

 

[wombat666]

Hey All,
I didn't watch any of it with the Master's on. That said F1 is of course a fast becoming a pure spec series - has to be - probably many of the same concerns as with NASCAR - speed, can't allow dominance, etc are in play as in NASCAR. I know the past was different but people and circumstance change - to ever more being about entertainment and the show - inequality does not put on a good show.
Now the comment I did not make last week but will now was about the definition of the word team. A team should absolutely be defined as driver, car and that car's support team - NOT - the constructor. You see then you avoid the team orders and predetermined finishing order. They (whoever they is - FIA?) should take the spotlight OFF the constructor when dealing with an evolving spec series thus making it a credible series.-Ed-

Ed, firstly, you must have been REALLY pissed to see an Aussie win the Masters!

Now, 'Entertainment and the Show', in other words, appealing to the unwashed and uneducated masses, a wheeled version of the 'WWE Wrestling' that seems to be very 'popular' with the bottom of the Gene Pool.
I don't think so.
The 'Constructor's Championship' is into its 63rd year (give or take a year, I'm not going to check) and has been part and parcel of Formula 1, indeed, the rivalry for that title has fuelled some epic battles for decades.
As for your definition of a 'Team', I'm certain Roger Penske and his fellow team owners would be really pleased to see their respective 'Team' drivers taking one another out, not!
I suppose attempting to beat the crap out a fellow competitor AFTER the event is also 'entertaining', Formula 1 take note, must be included for 2014!

As I've stated before, there is no such thing as a level playing field in Motorsport.
From personal experience in the early days of FF1600, everything was done to make this formula even, tyres, engine, wheels, transmission, even the cost of a rolling chassis was pegged. (1970, A$5000.00 for a rolling chassis which included the Hewland transaxle).
However, a well financed operation could turn up with a spare car, half a dozen engines, extra Hewlands and fresh rubber for each practice session and each race!
It cost me less to step up to a higher level with a more sophisticated and faster car than to remain in the 'Junior' series.
If there is parity in NASCAR (for example) it is not working, as the big spenders dominate, just like F1.

Must be time for my medication..........................

 

[Ferry_vO]

I was using the FW15C as an example Ferry, and remember, it wasn't totally dominant due to teething problems and Senna's brilliant drives at most events.
We need the cutting edge of technology that this cars exemplifies, even if it pushes the opposition to the edge.

At what cost? Even with the current cars the top teams spend well over $250 million each year; raising the tecchnological standard will also raise the costs for the teams and I doubt there'll be eleven teams on the grid if that happens. And the general audience really only wants to see good racing, they don't care what's underneath the skin, as long as there's excitement up to the very last race like in the past few seasons. If one team dominates (Like in the Schumacher era for example) there are few people on the grandstands and in front of their televisions. Without spectators the race organisers get in financial trouble, there's less income from television rights, and the sport will suffer. (Goes for any racing class.)

 

[wombat666]

I understand your reasoning Ferry, but look at it this way, get rid of the ridiculous 'Aero' packages, in other words smaller and simpler wings allied to uncluttered body shells, make the bottom of the cars 'flat' for the entire length and the vast sums of money spent on wind tunnel and aerodynamic tweaks becomes available for proper vehicle developments.
As we have it today, it's all about aero and very little about mechanical grip.

 

[Firekitten]

There has always been a debate about the technical advances of f1, the danger, the money... Find a topic, there will always be someone to complain about it.

'too much downforce'

'too much money'

'pay drivers'

'boring processional races'

'its all about speed'



Just what are you wanting from F1? What do you want in a racing series? because I can guarantee, that for whatever you want, there is currently a series out there that caters to it. People race everything from sports cars down to unicycles, but that's not what you want is it?

You want Formula one, to fundamentally change, and by doing so, it would no longer be the formula it has come to be today. And if Formula one was 'all about aero and no mechanical grip' why is the tyre debate so critical? why do compounds wear out so fast? why is that choice the difference between winning and losing? I'd say mechanical grip is almost equal, but that aero and mechanical grip work in harmony in F1, not against each other. As we've seen on the best cars... those that complement each other, win.

Why do we limit technology? Safety. Bigger engines, more computer control, all leads to higher speeds on tracks that weren't designed to take them, more potential for accidents, and more injuries. Active suspension from the early 90s in the likes of the FW15 were removed not only for safety reasons, but for the good of the sport.

At the time of the fw15, Adrian Newey once said that it would have been possible, with another year or two of development, to have the cars automated... no drivers. that was the level Formula one was reaching. Boring.

Driver aids were reduced, limited, and controlled to ensure that the major component in each car, was the human being.

What did that leave teams? Aero.

If you don't like that, its perhaps time to look into other motorsports.


On the team topic... Constructors vs drivers... After the Redbull Fiasco, Its abundantly clear that Sebastien runs the team with Marko. Horner was severely undermined by the events in KL, and Webber's confidence is totally shaken. But doesn't that make for great drama? isn't that part of the reason we love the sport? the drama both on and off the track.

As for drivers being in charge, with the team supporting them? heh, no. Redbull is a clear example of that being a bad idea. As for teams being the problem or 'constructors' as the OP sees it, F1 is a team sport. Teams enter... teams enter two cars, with drivers, thats how the sport has always worked. What advantage would there be to change that system? The public onus now, and always has, been on the drivers championship, and over the last few years, the fight has been a good one. Historically, its given us some magical moments. The constructors championship, or more appropriately really the 'team' championship, is financially vital to the teams, it keeps them going, yet very low prominence to the racing public. So what's the problem with it?

As for banning team orders... heh, anyone that thinks thats possible, is naive.



Try not to compare nascar to F1. While yes, both involve cars, with four wheels, on a track, with people trying to beat you to a bit of cloth on a stick, they are entirely different sports, from different origins, with different evolutionary and ideological pathways.






(PS: Nascar: If I wanted to watch rednecks going in circles for hours on end, I'd spend my Sunday afternoon's in the walmart parking lot. lol lol)

 

[wombat666]

The only 'Pure' form of Motorsport today will be in action next weekend in Texas, no Team orders, but with traction control and a form of Automated Gearing/ABS (the 'Slipper' Clutch), no radio control, over 200MPH and all on two wheels.
MotoGP!.
Big brass balls are mandatory!!
While the CRT category is restricted to enable Privateers to race against the Factory Teams, they are starting to get amongst the Prototypes, which can only bode well for the future as this is only the second year of the CRT.

And I don't mind a good NASCAR race, unfortunately they're few and far between!

 

[Jafo]

What FireKitten said ...

 

[Jafo]

MotoGP? ...yes, you're right about the balls... but as to the rest I'm not too sure. To all intents and purposes 'DORNA' is just Spanish for 'Bernie' ....
It's F1 with 2 wheels missing.

Everyone at P.I. simply prefers the SBK ....less bull-sh*t ... more fun.

Turn 8 at P.I. [sweeping right-hander heading up to Lukey] I saw the lead change 3 times.....
.....in the one lap. And no, not through the one lap.....through that one corner in the one lap.

With the new surface terminal speeds are going to be a long way beyond 200mph this year....I'd expect closer to 350kph [current is 336].

Strangely [getting back closer to the Op]...my order of preferences for working the races these days is F1...then SBK...and third the Moto. Lastly are those [mostly] obnoxious Supercars.
As for Formula Ford or Formula Lawnmower [V] ... generally the car's ability greatly surpasses the driver's. I gave up appreciating them when the entire field 'visited' me at Calder [3/4 of them failed to continue]...and the race was canned...to be continued in a dressing-down to them all for being so stupid turn one...lap one....

 

[Panther_99FS]

Anyone remember after traction control was banned, McLaren rear disks were observed to be glowing on corner exit? - And the subsequent discovery of the 2nd brake pedal....