jamminjames
Charter Member
Thanks for the info Mick. Gives me an approx. place to start some flights.
Early Boeing B17D Flying Fortress for Fs9
- Thread starter Shessi
- Start date
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
The 'Swoose' should be a contender.......maybe.........historic aircraft etc.
The Swoose wore quite a few liveries during its long service life, initially in the Southwest Pacific but mostly in Panama.
If you want it in its earliest look, simply delete the number from the fin on Shessi's silver skin. Just plain natural metal with American national insignia (and the rudder markings were part of the national insignia.) It almost certainly had the standard U.S. Army titles under the wings, but you can get those from one of my skins (probably available later today or maybe tomorrow.) (I think the 19th BG skin in the download maybe should have that feature too, but I'm not certain.)
The next step was almost certainly to paint out the rudder stripes and the red centers on the star insignia, and to apply a coat of olive drab over neutral gray camo, probably done at the same time and probably pretty soon after the plane reached Australia. But I don't know about other markings at that time.
When it was based in Panama the Swoose served as a VIP transport for high ranking officers and flew many diplomatic missions around the Caribbean, Central and South America. On the nose it acquired a large and extensive flag panel to display the many countries it visited, much like the one seen on US Air Force Thunderbirds demo team aircraft and probably the inspiration for it. That flag panel could be painted from available flag images IF one could figure out what flags to use and where they went on the panel, and if one was utterly compulsive and had lots of time on one's hands. Maybe we could substitute a Thunderbirds flag panel - they look identical as ling as the resolution isn't high enough to show clearly all those European flags on the Thunderbirds' version.
There was also a piece of artwork over the rear entry door that depicted the cartoon "Swoose" that the plane was named after. I don't know about the Swoose artwork, where to get a good image of it or when it was first painted on the plane. . And I'm not sure about other markings during that period.
There is a series of articles in issues of the American Aviation Historical Society's Journal about he history of the various American air bases in the Panama Canal Zone and one of them had pictures of the Swoose. I don't know what the chances are of me finding those articles, and if I did, I don't know of there are any shots of the entire plane. I will look for the articles but maybe not today. And Mr. Google could probably help find images of such a famous plane.
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
Question
I'm looking for a fact and an opinion.
The fact: can someone confirm or refute my suspicion that this Fortress I wouldn't have had any roundels under the wings? The photo was probably taken in 1941. There is another photo that shows the wing bottoms and they seem to look bare, but dark shadow makes it impossible to really tell.
The opinion: does anyone agree with my interpretation that the rudder of this plane looks like it might be roundel red? Or does anyone actually know the color?
I'm looking for a fact and an opinion.
The fact: can someone confirm or refute my suspicion that this Fortress I wouldn't have had any roundels under the wings? The photo was probably taken in 1941. There is another photo that shows the wing bottoms and they seem to look bare, but dark shadow makes it impossible to really tell.
The opinion: does anyone agree with my interpretation that the rudder of this plane looks like it might be roundel red? Or does anyone actually know the color?
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2024
Hi Mick,
The RAF standard for the time included underwing marks.
If that's a pre delivery shot, then they would be there,
would help if there was a location and better shot of serial number.
Ttfn
Pete
The RAF standard for the time included underwing marks.
If that's a pre delivery shot, then they would be there,
would help if there was a location and better shot of serial number.
Ttfn
Pete
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
Thanks Pete.
I found one answer. I went to upload the photo I mentioned where the undersides show but are deeply shadowed, and I couldn't find it. I apparently deleted it when I finished (?) the paint job. So I went looking for it again and stumbled upon another shot that shows the undersides clearly and there are no roundels. It might even be a better copy of the photo I had before.
Anyway, the serial is AM528 and I suspect that the several on the Interweb of this same plane are pre-delivery publicity shots. Weren't the RAF's planes painted in RAF camo before delivery?
I also found this side shot that makes the rudder look even more like the red centers of the roundels. I don't suppose the RAF specified red rudders, but if Boeing dressed up a production B-17C in RAF marks for publicity shots, the easiest way to disguise the USAAF rudder stripes would be to cover the white stripes in red. But that's a guess, and a fairly wild one at that, so I still welcome anyone's comments about what the rudder color might have been.
Hi Mick/Pete,
Having been looking at the D for months, it's a minefield of pics / info and mistakes!
As you've found Pete, the RAF B17s are C models not D, the only real difference is that the D had cooling gills on the engine nacelles, the C didn't, the rest is armour/armament and internal equipment. So when painting, just paint gills for the D and no gills for the C model, simple!
The pics of AM528 is a C model, firstly no paint underside and then a deep blue, see pics below. This ac was used as a promo ac for war bonds around the US, and Brit PR to help us get support in the States for the war effort . I don't know what colour the rudder is but I like your theory gents that it may be all red, and may be to cover up other colours.
I was going to do an RAF Coastal Command tex, if you look at the top of the pic with the RAF B17s in colour on you'll see there was the green/brown camo with a deep PR blue underneath, grey/green with the same, and grey/green with white (Coastal Command), and a trial for night of grey/green with black, be good to have a few of those for a change.
Cheers Shessi
Having been looking at the D for months, it's a minefield of pics / info and mistakes!
As you've found Pete, the RAF B17s are C models not D, the only real difference is that the D had cooling gills on the engine nacelles, the C didn't, the rest is armour/armament and internal equipment. So when painting, just paint gills for the D and no gills for the C model, simple!
The pics of AM528 is a C model, firstly no paint underside and then a deep blue, see pics below. This ac was used as a promo ac for war bonds around the US, and Brit PR to help us get support in the States for the war effort . I don't know what colour the rudder is but I like your theory gents that it may be all red, and may be to cover up other colours.
I was going to do an RAF Coastal Command tex, if you look at the top of the pic with the RAF B17s in colour on you'll see there was the green/brown camo with a deep PR blue underneath, grey/green with the same, and grey/green with white (Coastal Command), and a trial for night of grey/green with black, be good to have a few of those for a change.
Cheers Shessi
Cheers guys!
Well many thanks to the defunct FDG2 team coz it wouldn't be here without them..and thanks to Jamie (JDT) who had the GMAX source files buried deep in a dusty HDD...
Hi Mav, good to see you about
Cheers
Shessi
Yeh.... still here
Cheers mav
Motormouse
SOH-CM-2024
That's sort of cleared up the case with its provenance as a demo bird, I came across one source that mentioned the serial applied, AM528 was incorrect as well.... same serial was applied to a later model supplied to RAF
Ttfn
Pete
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
Thanks Guys!
Much is now explained! I had the idea from the start that this was some sort of demo bird, mainly because I didn't think the RAF would accept a plane that wasn't properly camouflaged. The British were always fussier than the Americans about correct camo schemes.
What initially led me to doubt it was the absence of Mount Rainier in the background. Boeing publicity shots have traditionally had Mt. Rainier in the background for as long as there's been a Mt. Rainier. Or at least as long as there's been a Boeing. But if the mission was to travel the country to drum up support for the Brits, those pics could've been taken almost anywhere.
As for the apparently red rudder, maybe my guess that it was painted to cover the US Army rudder stripes might be right. Or maybe it was just to make the plane pretty. I think RAF roundels on silver are pretty enough to paint, but the rudder is a nice extra touch.
I know the main visible difference between the C and D models was the cowl flaps. But I read that all the Cs were brought up to D standards, so I think I won't bother to paint out the gills on my C skins.
Much is now explained! I had the idea from the start that this was some sort of demo bird, mainly because I didn't think the RAF would accept a plane that wasn't properly camouflaged. The British were always fussier than the Americans about correct camo schemes.
What initially led me to doubt it was the absence of Mount Rainier in the background. Boeing publicity shots have traditionally had Mt. Rainier in the background for as long as there's been a Mt. Rainier. Or at least as long as there's been a Boeing. But if the mission was to travel the country to drum up support for the Brits, those pics could've been taken almost anywhere.
As for the apparently red rudder, maybe my guess that it was painted to cover the US Army rudder stripes might be right. Or maybe it was just to make the plane pretty. I think RAF roundels on silver are pretty enough to paint, but the rudder is a nice extra touch.
I know the main visible difference between the C and D models was the cowl flaps. But I read that all the Cs were brought up to D standards, so I think I won't bother to paint out the gills on my C skins.
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Mick
SOH-CM-2024
Up the pipe
I just up loaded a set of four skins, including the pseudo-RAF one discussed above. The others are a Materiel Division plane with the Wright Field arrowhead insignia, and planes from the 22nd and 42nd Bombardment Squadrons.
They look a lot alike, as Army planes tended to in those days, the differing mainly in their unit codes. I might've just done the Wrght Field one, but I expect to park the others as static scenery objects on the ramps at Hamilton and Hickam Fields in Golden Wings.
I just up loaded a set of four skins, including the pseudo-RAF one discussed above. The others are a Materiel Division plane with the Wright Field arrowhead insignia, and planes from the 22nd and 42nd Bombardment Squadrons.
They look a lot alike, as Army planes tended to in those days, the differing mainly in their unit codes. I might've just done the Wrght Field one, but I expect to park the others as static scenery objects on the ramps at Hamilton and Hickam Fields in Golden Wings.
HorusJ
Charter Member
Josh Patterson
SOH-CM-2023
Man, the early B-17s are almost as pretty as the 307! (The tunnel gun gondola kinda spoils the clean lines though!) It looks so delicate with all the beef missing from the tail!
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
Hurricane91
SOH-CM-2023
Mick, your B-17 skins are well researched, and a very nice addition to the model. Thank you.
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
Say Mark,
Just wonderin'...
Do you plan to revise the gun positions to make a B-17B?
I ask because the B models seem to have worn much more colorful unit markings than the C and D models. I found several very attractive B-model liveries while searching for Cs and Ds to paint.
If you don't plan a B, I might be compelled to paint up some skins in the vein of "This B-17D is dressed up as a B-17B of whatever unit..."
But if there's a B-model in the future I'll wait for it.
Just wonderin'...
Do you plan to revise the gun positions to make a B-17B?
I ask because the B models seem to have worn much more colorful unit markings than the C and D models. I found several very attractive B-model liveries while searching for Cs and Ds to paint.
If you don't plan a B, I might be compelled to paint up some skins in the vein of "This B-17D is dressed up as a B-17B of whatever unit..."
But if there's a B-model in the future I'll wait for it.