EKA-3 "Whale"
- Thread starter Cowboy1968
- Start date
jackryan172
SOH-CM-2025
If I remember correctly they flew missile profiles against surface ships. They pretended to be cruise missiles or something like that.
Sean
Mike71
SOH-CM-2025
The EA-3B was an electronic signals collector. However, I think some VC and VX squadrons used them, with A-4s flying wing on each side, to fly anti-ship attacks for training of ship Combat Systems crews. At a certain distance and altitude, the A-4s would accelerate out toward the ship simulating dual cruise missiles, while the Whale turned back - simulating Russian BEAR and BADGER tactics of the time. Russia had a significant anti-naval air force arm in my day. I joined up on more than a few snoopers as they roamed around battle groups in the North Atlantic, Med and Pacific rim. The BEAR had unreal range and endurance, but of course somewhat slow.
God's truth there, LOL... same thing with the F-8's. John Massey, our Maintenance Master Chief in VFP-63, always carried one of those red shop rags in his pocket to wipe leaking hydraulic fluid off the jets as he traveled around the hangar and flight line. An A-3 "in the groove" would always cause the flight deck personnel to perk up and move away from the landing foul line, especially on the Essex class carriers. That was a big jet to be operating on those smaller decks.
HorusJ
Charter Member
Having been born and raised in Camarillo the final approach pattern for PMTC(Pt.Mugu) was right over my house and to this day I miss watching VAQ-34's Whales screaming overhead.They also flew two-seat A-7s.Sadly VAQ-34 is no more along with VX-4
.
HorusJ
Charter Member
Mike! How would you rate Alphasim's/Virtavia's A-3 handling compared to the real thing?
Joel
Cowboy1968
Charter Member
Ok the EA-3 was a signals intelligence gatherer, ESM (electronic support measures )in Navy terms. It had the ability to conduct defensive ECM. They were usually to fleet reconnaissance squadrons which were designated VQ. The USN had four of these squadrons VQ-1 to VQ- 4. They usually were stationed ashore and sent out to the carriers if their mission capabilities were needed.
Then you had the EKA-3, that was a duel role machine. These planes were usually assigned to VAQ squadrons aboard the carriers. They performed tanking duty, but they also were the ECM force for a strike package. They provided defensive and offensive ECM. Defensive they identified enemy radar and missiles launch areas, and then they conducted offensive ECM by jamming them. This role would later be taken on by the EA-6B Provider. It should be pointed out that the first designation for these squadrons were VAW as detachments. Once these detachments were re-classed as VAQ, VAW squadrons redirected to a total AEW role.
When the A-3B first entered the fleet they were deployed as VAH, heavy attack squadrons, but once the heavy attack role was removed from the carriers the VAH squadrons shifted the role to tanking with KA-3B and provided detachments to carriers in the late 60's.
The RA-3B, was the photo recon bird and it was attached to VAP, heavy photographic squadrons and were used to watch the trails in Vietnam with inferred cameras and low light video equipment, once they found a target they would call in strikes.
The TA-3 was used in the Fleet Readiness Squadrons to train the flight crews for the Whales.
Then you had the EKA-3, that was a duel role machine. These planes were usually assigned to VAQ squadrons aboard the carriers. They performed tanking duty, but they also were the ECM force for a strike package. They provided defensive and offensive ECM. Defensive they identified enemy radar and missiles launch areas, and then they conducted offensive ECM by jamming them. This role would later be taken on by the EA-6B Provider. It should be pointed out that the first designation for these squadrons were VAW as detachments. Once these detachments were re-classed as VAQ, VAW squadrons redirected to a total AEW role.
When the A-3B first entered the fleet they were deployed as VAH, heavy attack squadrons, but once the heavy attack role was removed from the carriers the VAH squadrons shifted the role to tanking with KA-3B and provided detachments to carriers in the late 60's.
The RA-3B, was the photo recon bird and it was attached to VAP, heavy photographic squadrons and were used to watch the trails in Vietnam with inferred cameras and low light video equipment, once they found a target they would call in strikes.
The TA-3 was used in the Fleet Readiness Squadrons to train the flight crews for the Whales.
Cowboy1968
Charter Member
Now over in the USAF, the B-66 was what it was a medium bomber...considered the replacement for the B-45.
the EB-66 was the Air Force's offensive ECM bird for the Vietnam War. It wouldn't be replaced until the IOC of the General Dynamics/Grumman EF-111A Raven in 1983.
The RB-66 was used photo work in the same manner as the RA-3B.
the EB-66 was the Air Force's offensive ECM bird for the Vietnam War. It wouldn't be replaced until the IOC of the General Dynamics/Grumman EF-111A Raven in 1983.
The RB-66 was used photo work in the same manner as the RA-3B.
Mick
SOH-CM-2025
In John Fredriksen's book The B-45 Tornado he claims that B-45 crews were not pleased to convert to the B-66 because they thought the B-45 did both the bombing and recce jobs better, despite the B-66 being newer and faster. He also says that the Air Force refused to spend the money to install the tail guns in the RB-45s because the B-66 was in the pipeline and the B-45 was scheduled for replacement, even though the RB-45 was flying combat in Korea and dodging MiGs.
casey jones
Charter Member
The A3D For Mike71
In 1958 I was 14 years old, I was attending Junior High in Crescent city Florida, I was going out the
door after school when I looked up and saw PV2 Neptunes circleing near by helecopters were also
in number I walked down a dirt road near the school and came upon the fuselage of a Douglas
A3D sitting upright, I picked up a small piece of tubing that read "Douglas airplane company,
then I walked further until I reached an open field there was the nose and cockpit of the A3D
laying on its side with a parachute streaming out the cockpit it had blood on it. the pilot was
still in his seat the other two crewmen had baled out. The plane was from Sanford NAS.
I was watching a program on youtube where a EA3 attempted to land at night on a carrier,
at the controls was a very young Marine 2d Lt who was bringing back a crew of ECM Operators
after a night mission in the Med. I saw the tape of the landing as he aimed for the deck and
the plane seemed to squash onto the deck going though the barriers into the ocean. According
to the story the Navy did not attempt a recovery of the plane which shows it still floating and
helicopers over it. For some reason the incident was not made public for a number of years.
But also the pilot asked the CAG if they could bail out, he was told no.
Thank You
Casey
In 1958 I was 14 years old, I was attending Junior High in Crescent city Florida, I was going out the
door after school when I looked up and saw PV2 Neptunes circleing near by helecopters were also
in number I walked down a dirt road near the school and came upon the fuselage of a Douglas
A3D sitting upright, I picked up a small piece of tubing that read "Douglas airplane company,
then I walked further until I reached an open field there was the nose and cockpit of the A3D
laying on its side with a parachute streaming out the cockpit it had blood on it. the pilot was
still in his seat the other two crewmen had baled out. The plane was from Sanford NAS.
I was watching a program on youtube where a EA3 attempted to land at night on a carrier,
at the controls was a very young Marine 2d Lt who was bringing back a crew of ECM Operators
after a night mission in the Med. I saw the tape of the landing as he aimed for the deck and
the plane seemed to squash onto the deck going though the barriers into the ocean. According
to the story the Navy did not attempt a recovery of the plane which shows it still floating and
helicopers over it. For some reason the incident was not made public for a number of years.
But also the pilot asked the CAG if they could bail out, he was told no.
Thank You
Casey
Mike71
SOH-CM-2025
At least 1 TA-3B was kept at Andrews AFB for the CNO for a period of time.
Mike71
SOH-CM-2025
Whatever program you were watching, it is mostly crap or your memory is a little fuzzy.
I believe you are referring to two separate incidents at different times, but both aboard USS NIMITZ (CVN-68).
The first incident, a Marine EA-6B did take the top of the barricade rather than rolling into it, despite LSO attempts to keep him from going high in close. Obviously, snagging the top of the barricade is not the idea - the barricade actually is attached to a 5th cross deck pendant (CDP) and the lens is set so the pilot will touch down, roll into the net and pick up the CDP (if the hook is useable). That plane cartwheeled up onto the bow, causing a serious fire, at night. The 4 man crew was lost along with several men on deck.
The second incident was an EA-3B, running out of fuel at night who essentially did the same thing. The crew did not ask to bail out -and anyway, that is the pilot's decision, period. He/she doesn't need anyone's permission. That plane crashed off the end of the Angle Deck, all crew was lost. You can't recover a crashed plane in most instances; to many factors have to come into play. This accident caused the Navy to cease A-3 ops aboard carriers except in an emergency.
I was Air Boss on NIMITZ in the 80's and am very familiar with these events, although neither occurred "on my watch" so to speak.
Mike71
SOH-CM-2025
I did a lot of tweaking in the aircraft.cfg file to make it more useable to me, but "out of the box" it was OK. However, I can tell you that very few FSX planes fly particularly like the real thing without some work on control sensitivities, trim effectiveness, and pitch stability.
Also, thrust/fuel consumption often has to be worked on to get realistic performance. However, The Alpha/Virtavia seemed in the ball park starting out.
HorusJ
Charter Member
I suspected the fuel consumption is a bit off. Thank you for your insight Mike!
Hi everyone,
out of interest for this peculiar naval aircraft, could someone kindly post a picture of the payware versions panel/VC?
I don't seem to get what changed in comparison to the freeware edition - either the various stores like
pcaviator / simmarket etc. didn't update their galleries or it s very much in the details?
The gauges seem to be the same...
I've contemplated buying it, but had hoped for more improvement in this area as with some of their other products which
received upgraded versions . The repaints however do look very very good.
On another note, thank you Mike71 for your insights into operating this aircraft.
Is there any chance you might upload or share your aircraft.cfg improvements of the Whale?
Kind regards,
Oliver
out of interest for this peculiar naval aircraft, could someone kindly post a picture of the payware versions panel/VC?
I don't seem to get what changed in comparison to the freeware edition - either the various stores like
pcaviator / simmarket etc. didn't update their galleries or it s very much in the details?
The gauges seem to be the same...
I've contemplated buying it, but had hoped for more improvement in this area as with some of their other products which
received upgraded versions . The repaints however do look very very good.
On another note, thank you Mike71 for your insights into operating this aircraft.
Is there any chance you might upload or share your aircraft.cfg improvements of the Whale?
Kind regards,
Oliver
Mike71
SOH-CM-2025
The layout is not bad, especially the general shape of the windows and panel background. The old standard MILSPEC black/grey attitude indicaror - "the Lear Liar" is pretty accurate, also the ID249 CDI/GS indicator. The RMI is OK, but the oft used "Connie RMI" I see in a lot of freeware is the best MILSPEC RMI of the era.
The plane needs an AoA indexer above the left glareshield in the pilot's line of sight, and several gauges need to be moved around. I have not spent much time on this, but it would not take much time if I get a chance.
There were some differences, especially on the right side depending on what version of A-3 you were flying; tankers had a fuel counter transfer console for example), but no big deal.
I big point is that the fuselage-pressurized "version" A-3 series - the EA/RA/TA had a somewhat better cockpit structure; the upper escape hatch was a "plug" type that pulled downward on a hinge. The straight A-3s had an aft- sliding hatch. Window framing was a little heavier in the versions. I thing the Virtavia model picks this up well.
Also, remember that the bottom entry hatch was also a bailout hatch, accessible to anyone in the airplane. The upper hatch was for cockpit egress if ditching or runway departure but still upright, etc. All version A-3s had some type of side fuselage door for the pressurized fuselage crew as necessary. The original basic bomber/tanker was only pressurized in the cockpit.
The plane needs an AoA indexer above the left glareshield in the pilot's line of sight, and several gauges need to be moved around. I have not spent much time on this, but it would not take much time if I get a chance.
There were some differences, especially on the right side depending on what version of A-3 you were flying; tankers had a fuel counter transfer console for example), but no big deal.
I big point is that the fuselage-pressurized "version" A-3 series - the EA/RA/TA had a somewhat better cockpit structure; the upper escape hatch was a "plug" type that pulled downward on a hinge. The straight A-3s had an aft- sliding hatch. Window framing was a little heavier in the versions. I thing the Virtavia model picks this up well.
Also, remember that the bottom entry hatch was also a bailout hatch, accessible to anyone in the airplane. The upper hatch was for cockpit egress if ditching or runway departure but still upright, etc. All version A-3s had some type of side fuselage door for the pressurized fuselage crew as necessary. The original basic bomber/tanker was only pressurized in the cockpit.
johndetrick
Charter Member
I strongly doubt that Marine was a 2nd Lt. More like a Captain at least.
Cowboy1968
Charter Member
When i was talking about the various aircraft models, I forgot to mention the ERA-3B, this "Whale" was a massive improvement over the EKA-3 in the role of offensive ECM. so much to the point it was used as an aggressor aircraft against even enemy ships radars. For radar countermeasures it had no equal until the arrival of the EA-6B Prowler, but even then it still had an ECM suite that was viable well into the 1980's. It performed both defensive and offensive ECM....
Even though its defensive ECM package is immense for the aircraft, this "Whale" was designed to get into airspace that was heavily protected by radar surveillance and to go in and get electronic signal intelligence, photographic recon, and video surveillance of a target area. You can sort of consider an ERA-3, a cross between an EA-3 area surveillance aircraft (signal intelligence) and a RA-3 photo recon bird, with hopefully deep penetration ability using its ECM suite. Unlike, EKA-3, this machine was not meant to conduct offensive ECM in support of a aerial task force. Its jamming equipment was meant to be used against area radar coverage, while the EKA-3 was more or less used to jam enemy air defense radar.
The ERA-3 proved to be an excellent area surveillance aircraft!
All that said, the aircraft converted to the ERA-3 standard spent all their useful life as aggressor aircraft in war at sea exercises simulating Soviet ECM/ESM aircraft...and also emulating Soviet bombers on cruise missile attacks!!!
Even though its defensive ECM package is immense for the aircraft, this "Whale" was designed to get into airspace that was heavily protected by radar surveillance and to go in and get electronic signal intelligence, photographic recon, and video surveillance of a target area. You can sort of consider an ERA-3, a cross between an EA-3 area surveillance aircraft (signal intelligence) and a RA-3 photo recon bird, with hopefully deep penetration ability using its ECM suite. Unlike, EKA-3, this machine was not meant to conduct offensive ECM in support of a aerial task force. Its jamming equipment was meant to be used against area radar coverage, while the EKA-3 was more or less used to jam enemy air defense radar.
The ERA-3 proved to be an excellent area surveillance aircraft!
All that said, the aircraft converted to the ERA-3 standard spent all their useful life as aggressor aircraft in war at sea exercises simulating Soviet ECM/ESM aircraft...and also emulating Soviet bombers on cruise missile attacks!!!
Mike71
SOH-CM-2025
Well said- these were true hybrids, only a few rebuilt as such. They were too heavy for Carrier ops, and maxed out at 82000 lbs TOW vice the standard 78000 lb max (airfield) TOW of the typical A-3B series. They belonged to the Fleet Electronic Warfare Support Group, "FEWSG", commonly pronounced "few-sig".