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  • Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.

    Post 16 Update

    Post 17 Warning

ELCO PTboat, pilotable, FREE

Back To Square 1 - Again

So we got 55.5 Mg of WHAT? The models? We had that already, I do believe. So now what?

And the Static_Height is simply the height that your ac will lift UP to when you press the 'Y' key (slew) and is ALSO the HEIGHT that FSX will PLACE your AC on initial loading. If the wheel or float is '-3.000' then the static_height s/b '+3.200' so as to raise the ac and 'clear' those cnt pts (placement) in relation to the surface (land or water).

Try making static_height '-3.000' and see what happens. So it CAN'T be negative. And making it '2.900' is not negative, it's just not enough to clear the surface (land or water). Make it '0.200' more than vertical pos of cnt pt (in this case '3.200') and be done with it. No 'need' to draw lines unless you want to practice your doodling in paint.

I believe there should be a different thread for each boat so as to best put together a good set of FDE's (with por/con input for each) to iron out the 'experimental' -vs- 'established' values THAT WORK BEST for the 3 different cnt pts for each model. Mix and match ain't going to cut it.
Chuck B
Napamule
 
Folks wanted the models. As the FDE's are still in a state of flux, and there are other things still to come for the boats; coupled with time(work.work.taxes.work.15 other FSX projects and betas) I simply jammed the boat models in basic containers with the first edition FDE. You will have to display some initiative and some adaptability, round up the other bits and go. Cannot do it all.
 
...let me know how that staggered height between floats works for you...
Click to expand...

Thanks for all your help, Pam. I've tweaked quite a bit on planes, never a boat, and I'm loving the learning experience with this one.
I'm a numbers guy too. I just gotta know. I added a few digital test gauges to my panel and went into testing mode.

Rockin' and Rollin' effect with staggered floats(0.15ft):
+-0.68deg peak, dead in the water, up to ~30 knots, where it starts settling in to +-0.21deg peak, Full tilt(48-50 knots).
The effect varies from 1.5 to 4.0deg, depending on wind and waves, during 40-42 knot max rate turns. Always to the inside now too.

With the FDE I've been using(based on your RC2), setting 20, 25, and 30deg, on the floats(Pos #7), with no Water Rudder, gave widely varying turns. Changing the effectivity(Pos #10) worked similar to steering angle changes.
At times the turns were more skid than heading change. That could be due to my *.air changes of; Cl_dr(Roll Moment-Rudder), Cn_dr(Yaw Moment-Rudder), CY_beta(Side force, Sideslip), and CY_p(Side force Roll Rate?).

My best all around turning capability came with; zero steering angle in the Floats, and 25 degrees setting in an added Water Rudder(Effectivity=1.0).
I tested Max turn rates(Fwd) with a stopwatch vs compass. Below is the average of my best 3 turns each, Right and Left.
550rpm displayed(0% throttle, 3-8knots): ~150deg/minute. Wind and waves really affected this. As you said SPEED! 700-800RPM, indicated, starts giving me much better turn rate, but, still slow enough to maneuver around tighter spaces.
1000rpm displayed(~30% throttle / ~15knots): 450deg/minute
1500rpm displayed(~50% throttle / ~25knots): 570deg/minute
2000rpm displayed(~75% throttle / ~35knots): 520deg/minute
2400rpm displayed(~100% throttle / ~42knots): 400deg/minute

I did note that wind and waves(Weather themes give differing pitch/roll changes) had quite an effect on all of my tests.

I'm still working on manual engine start/run/stop gauges, and tweaking "transmission" functionality. Auto Start/Stop work good. As does the throttle and tranny selector following controller/keyboard commands.
I'm hoping I can get individual forward/reverse working without creating a whirlpool.
I've got it back to where it works pretty good on a single outboard engine in fwd or rev.
******************

More awesome addtions to my FSX boating repertoire, laz! Thank You, very much. Very much indeed...Don
 
Proof

Ok. So we need to 'finish' making FDEs for these boats. And as long as one IDENTIFIES which boat the FDEs belong to, then we should be ok.

Here is a short video showing ('off') the low speed manouvering ability of a PT-Boat in FSX. Show it going forward and backwards at low rpm / low speed with only rudder and REAR cnt pts (only) having 'steer angle' of '30.0' in cnt pts and NO 'water rudder' use. Here is a boat that will do 40 kts and yet can 'inch' up to pier/dock with ease. It (virtually) has a transmission with INSTANT 'Fwrd' or 'Reverse'. I'm too good (hehe).
Link:http://youtu.be/JKl6CePpJNA .
Chuck B
Napamule
 
fxsttcb said:
Thanks for all your help, Pam. I've tweaked quite a bit on planes, never a boat, and I'm loving the learning experience with this one.
I'm a numbers guy too. I just gotta know. I added a few digital test gauges to my panel and went into testing mode.

Rockin' and Rollin' effect with staggered floats(0.15ft):
+-0.68deg peak, dead in the water, up to ~30 knots, where it starts settling in to +-0.21deg peak, Full tilt(48-50 knots).
The effect varies from 1.5 to 4.0deg, depending on wind and waves, during 40-42 knot max rate turns. Always to the inside now too.

With the FDE I've been using(based on your RC2), setting 20, 25, and 30deg, on the floats(Pos #7), with no Water Rudder, gave widely varying turns. Changing the effectivity(Pos #10) worked similar to steering angle changes.
At times the turns were more skid than heading change. That could be due to my *.air changes of; Cl_dr(Roll Moment-Rudder), Cn_dr(Yaw Moment-Rudder), CY_beta(Side force, Sideslip), and CY_p(Side force Roll Rate?).

My best all around turning capability came with; zero steering angle in the Floats, and 25 degrees setting in an added Water Rudder(Effectivity=1.0).
I tested Max turn rates(Fwd) with a stopwatch vs compass. Below is the average of my best 3 turns each, Right and Left.
550rpm displayed(0% throttle, 3-8knots): ~150deg/minute. Wind and waves really affected this. As you said SPEED! 700-800RPM, indicated, starts giving me much better turn rate, but, still slow enough to maneuver around tighter spaces.
1000rpm displayed(~30% throttle / ~15knots): 450deg/minute
1500rpm displayed(~50% throttle / ~25knots): 570deg/minute
2000rpm displayed(~75% throttle / ~35knots): 520deg/minute
2400rpm displayed(~100% throttle / ~42knots): 400deg/minute

I did note that wind and waves(Weather themes give differing pitch/roll changes) had quite an effect on all of my tests.

I'm still working on manual engine start/run/stop gauges, and tweaking "transmission" functionality. Auto Start/Stop work good. As does the throttle and tranny selector following controller/keyboard commands.
I'm hoping I can get individual forward/reverse working without creating a whirlpool.
I've got it back to where it works pretty good on a single outboard engine in fwd or rev.
******************

More awesome addtions to my FSX boating repertoire, laz! Thank You, very much. Very much indeed...Don
Click to expand...

I'm going to make a suggestion.. now that you have concrete measurments ( my RC2 was done without schematics btw. no printer ink ) remove the middle set of floats ( comment them out ) Once those are commented out, move the front set of floats to just either side of the keel ( like a snow mobile )and reduce their turn radius to 20. Then reduce the turn radius of the rear set to 10 ( or even 5 as i never experimented with that ). I know it seems bizaar steering from the front ( told you it'd get weird ) but it works. Dont worry about the speed of the boat at this moment. We know it goes fast enough, but getting it to go the correct speeds is a bit of voodoo combining longitudinal and vertical placement of the props, the diameter of the prop, the thrust rating on the prop ( waters 764 times more dense than air ), the efficiency of the prop ( not something we should have to play with but might ) the mach drag and mach tuck of the boat. I'm also wondering about entries 7-10 in the contacts panel. Twice now I've stumbled across a way to keep the boat from coming up on step which is what we want because we can make it more realistic at that point using the lift on the wing ( yes, it has a wing ) and the ground effects table .
I'm going to run off and make a small demo video with the schnellboot as a demo for what we're looking for..
 
napamule said:
So we got 55.5 Mg of WHAT? The models? We had that already, I do believe. So now what?

And the Static_Height is simply the height that your ac will lift UP to when you press the 'Y' key (slew) and is ALSO the HEIGHT that FSX will PLACE your AC on initial loading. If the wheel or float is '-3.000' then the static_height s/b '+3.200' so as to raise the ac and 'clear' those cnt pts (placement) in relation to the surface (land or water).

Try making static_height '-3.000' and see what happens. So it CAN'T be negative. And making it '2.900' is not negative, it's just not enough to clear the surface (land or water). Make it '0.200' more than vertical pos of cnt pt (in this case '3.200') and be done with it. No 'need' to draw lines unless you want to practice your doodling in paint.

I believe there should be a different thread for each boat so as to best put together a good set of FDE's (with por/con input for each) to iron out the 'experimental' -vs- 'established' values THAT WORK BEST for the 3 different cnt pts for each model. Mix and match ain't going to cut it.
Chuck B
Napamule
Click to expand...

Napa. I'm giving them the safest and least painful way of making the boats/planes/whatever do what they want them to do. maintaining the static CG with the internal CG will simplify things and make the process a whole lot smoother, because perhaps with airplanes, hight out of the water may not mean much, but here it means a great deal. We're possibly going to need to change static cg to adjust the low end speed of the boat ( yes it DOES play a part ) and thats gonna get hairy enough.
at the moment in this thread there is only one boat being worked on and thats the PT. The other boats are mentioned and i'm using the my schnellboot as an example of what "can" be done. It certainly isnt a complete example as there's lots of room for improvement everywhere, but its a light year ahead of the PT, and I believe relevant to what is being done on the PT at the moment.
 
Errors?

Warcchild,
You said: '..change static cg to adjust the low end speed of the boat...'. What you don't realize is that you are not ADJUSTING anything. You are merely moving the cnt pts OUT OF THE DIRT/WATER and thus you 'see' (apparent) effect on 'low speed'. If your cnt pts are TOO DEEP then you will 'bog down' (dah) AND you thus can 'assumbe' that the low speed is improved/adjusted. But you are just allowing the boat to skim on surface and not be mired in the mud.

I set the wheels (type.1 cnt pts) to, let's say -3.500', and then I set the 'static_cg_height' to '3.650' and then I set the floats to '2.650' (max-as it's a '1 ft' step/jump from wheel to float) and then I 'tune' the 'piston engine' and 'prop' sections for any 'low speed' adjustments. Not the cnt pts.

And by 'cg' I hope you mean the 'static_cg_height' in cnt pts and not the 'empty_weight_CG_position' in the (Weight and Balance) section. And anything other than '0.000' for the vertical value would just plain complicate things (as is where I would quit and go home).
Chuck B
Napamule
PS: I just clicked on the link and it showed the video. YouTube is now (trying to shove) showing videos thru html5 which is mainly a google chrome crap feature (which I am sure tracks and calls home) but your browser (IE or FireFox) is not yet set up for that. Morons. I guess I am going to have to go to a file hosting site to post videos. Phooey on YT. Media Fire comes to mind.
 
Chuck. i'm speaking from direct experience thats less than three weeks old. It is NOT the entire solution, but it is part of the solution. and i'm sorry. I will not put wheels on boats unless they're aqua cars. And yeah, please forgive the abruptness but i'll put the empty weight CG anywhere i bloody well feel like if it accomplishes the job it needs to accomplish. Please dont try to restrict me to your ideals. I'd rather work along side you like i do everyone else. And please pardon me if i'm a bit terse, but i'm still running well over a one hundred degree fever and had to deal with some rather unpleasant people today. I'm a bit agitated. Its my perception that you have tried to rip everything ive tried to share apart. Do you have something against me personally or can we drop this excursion and make a boat??
As for your edits? they're impeccable. however, the video thats uploading will show that you do not need wheels nor pushback, nor do you have to suffer with the "float" coming up on step. no more popping up out of the water. just a gentle and realistic rise. Fxsttcb appears to know his way around engines better than i do, and i trust him to be able to integrate our ( yours mine ours ) raw data on prop settings and altitude into an effective and realistic FDE.

380 minutes before the video is uploaded. ::sigh::

The CG ( both Static and empty weight ) are relational variables. Depending on what your trying to accomplish, you can do anything you want with them, provided you midify the relational dependencies to counter or support what your doing with the empty weight CG.
You can put the empty weight CG half a mile to the left and a mile high, provided you balance it out in the opposite polarity. Thats how we made the camel fly.. The CG is high ( but below the primary wing ) and very slightly offset to the left, while the engine was moved low and to the right. Its not as complex or as much of a can of worms as you may think, provided you work out your relationships first so that you have a clear path to follow. dont run away.. Come n in, the waters fine.. besides, no, we arent going to do anything funny with the cg. however, after you all see the video, you may want to rethink the way you look at entries 7 8 9 and 10 in the contacts table. to be honest, I've achieved a clean lift effect exactly four times during editing, and i havent got a clue what i did. If you can get the boat to ride perfectly smooth and flat, I can adjust the center of lift and ground effects to pull the nose up exactly the way it should.

Annnd, for your amusement ( if nothing else ) while waiting for the video to upload, heres a link to my you tube channel.. Enjoy :) http://www.youtube.com/user/urushira?feature=mhee
 
Pam, take a break, drink some hot spiced rum, and get better! The boats will still be here. Its been a fascinating development cycle, you have certainly provided me a rapid spool-up on the subject of FDE's.
Sorry for the terse posts earlier, but I purly detest that verdamned iphone and texting. Again, I uploaded the bare bones boats for development purposes as is, because I've just not had enough time to devote to organizing all the bits and bobs-no point untill its all finalized. When every one is happy with panels, lights, configs, ect, I would very much like to gather it all up and organize a proper package for the library- models, paints, FDE's and weapons. So, when every one is happy with their bits and bobs, post here, PM me , and we will get this all organized. It would be great if Usio would surface, or at least read his Email, too.
 
lazarus said:
Pam, take a break, drink some hot spiced rum, and get better! The boats will still be here. Its been a fascinating development cycle, you have certainly provided me a rapid spool-up on the subject of FDE's.
Sorry for the terse posts earlier, but I purly detest that verdamned iphone and texting. Again, I uploaded the bare bones boats for development purposes as is, because I've just not had enough time to devote to organizing all the bits and bobs-no point untill its all finalized. When every one is happy with panels, lights, configs, ect, I would very much like to gather it all up and organize a proper package for the library- models, paints, FDE's and weapons. So, when every one is happy with their bits and bobs, post here, PM me , and we will get this all organized. It would be great if Usio would surface, or at least read his Email, too.
Click to expand...

Youd probably wouldnt believe that i dont know what resting is ::LOL::.. Afraid working is all i know. but a good game of fable fallout or skyrim is always welcome until i can afford the new tomb raider and TES Online. but to be honest, it really bugs me that i cant concentrate on numbers at all right now.. That alone is very disheartening. Still, its provided an opportunity to watch new talent come forward and do things and more experienced people to step to the front and finally get some recognition themselves. besides, over all its giving us an opportunity to develop and explore new ways of using FSX that have heretofore been neglected and for the most part ignored. Its quite exciting for me :)..
::LOL:: 198 minutes till the video finishes uploading..

The thing with Usio is that he either is unaware of your attempts to contact him; He is refusing to respond; or he is unable to respond.
If a reasonable amount of time passes, or if either of the last two contingencies are true, theres a choice we need to make. We can either develop our own from scratch which comes with a plethora of complications such as, who among us is a top notch modeler, OR we start with a semi concrete base model such as here and develop it from there, OR we dont step up to the plate and let it go as is.. We're in a niche area of FSX that is possibly the tiniest and most neglected niche that there is. Theres no money to be made here, but, especially in the military venue, boats represent a very broad aspect of history from the Peloponnese to present day. it needs to be represented effectively in fsx and P3D.
 
OK, so, as promised. heres the video of the schnellboot being put through some paces. Keep in mind that it doesnt matter what boat it is because they will all share certain behavioral characteristics just the way everone has noses and fingerprints. Also keep in mind, this is far far far from perfect. its merely a demonstration and a glimpse into possibilities. I currently have the boat rolling at 66 knots on my system and its a solid roll which is burying the scupper ( which fsx doesnt like ). so the possibilities exist for any boat. its just a matter of learning to do it. Pushback was not used at the end of the clip. watch the speeds indicated in the upper left ( you may have to full screen it ).

 
The Elco link in the opening post is not working is there a new link? thanks great to see the little boats getting their inning. I found the S Boot i think. Is it all finished?

I have been onboard an S Boat so will check the model out which is Usio's i believe he did a good job on it shape wise.

Elco is his too i assume? Color was off but boat looked good. Most working PTs were gray even late into the war, the green was an occasional thing and depended on the skipper who had the last word. Many did individual enhancements.
 
Files

Chris,
The files for PT-Boat are derived from several zips. One is scenery and the other is Erwin Welker's work. They are:

(1). 'solomonislands1943traffic18.zip', 30.5 Mb, 10-27-2010. Inside you will find models by different modelers (Barnes, Crowther, Fitch, Fitzgerald (Bruce), Garcia, Jeffers (Ron). This zip was put together by David Wilson-Okamura. Inside is the 'pt-65 class' PT-Boat files. Extract using folder names to a temp folder. Then you will need an aircraft.cfg and a panel (in fsx if there is no panel there is no 'visual model' to load).

(2). Download 'fx_pt-boat.zip' from FSCom. It's 1.7 Mb, 04-07-2012, and has 'features' by Erwin Welker for the above 'pt-65 class' pt boat. The original modeler is Jim Dhaenens. Welker adds panel, deck views and 'weapons'.

(3). Then go fetch my FDEs for this boat ('ptboat_xr.zip') found on page 11 of this thread, and dated March 5, 2013. Make do with that until Pam puts out (snicker-snicker) and comes up with a different set of FDEs. I am now ONLY an observer- for the sake of peace & quiet.

  • :mix-smi:
Chuck B
Napamule
 
No, the S-boot is not finished yet. sorry. There are actually two S-boots, but i believe the one your asking about is the S-15 developed by Usio some time ago. I just passed a new S-boot fde to Lazarus this morning for his testing. If testing goes well, we'll move forward on it and I'll convert it for the PT. As I mentioned above, Fxsttab appears to have a good handle on engines and thrust so i'm going to focus mainly on its in water behavior. The biggest thing i need to overcome is swamping during a turn. If you make too tight of a turn, the boat will swamp. whether thats natural or not, i dont know. Most boats except hydroplanes do swamp but there are always exceptions ( like that new destroyer /cruiser that actually leans into a turn ). Its rolling about 15 degrees in tight turns, but constant rate turns are possible and reduce the amount of roll. Rolling now works through all speed ranges, reverse works, bow lift works without the pop up onto the step, but i'm still balancing yaw, skid, and turn rate to make turns more realistic in appearance and function.
 
Wow great work by all hands. OK i have the PT now, looks interesting and will do some sea trials and check it out.

yes the PT and the MTB did swamp on a turn if too tight, they had shallow draft and tended to "skid" and so had to be handled carefully the S Boots were a different story as they had very well designed hulls and were by far the best Small attack boat of the War by far. The Japanese were developing a good one but it never reached past prototype and the Italians has some good ones but they were essentially test boats with a wide variety of configurations.

So that is accurate but not desirable in the hands of a novice captain or virtual Airman who is trying out a stint on the bounding Main. :) it is very exciting to see this work underway and do keep it up,...i am eager to see it all at work.

There is a good powerboat with excellent wakes and handing for FS9 and FSX, you might get some good tips from studying her. I can send you the file if you cant find it but it should be around on the libraries. I forget the name sorry memory is not what it used to be...or maybe it never was. :)

I see there are even weapons effects for the PT! excellent, much progress underway..

and yes i have the Traffic ships for the Solomons as i am lending a small hand to Roger Wilco as i can for the beta for that magificent work.

The PT was for its purpose and the resources quite a remarkable success, it has its problems in handling but it fulfilled its mission well..and actually being made of wood was at times an advantage as shells tended to pass thru rather than explode...so it was tho an anachoronism, a successful one. At speed most of the Elco boats had a starboard helm bias, ie you had to steer against it, due to the torque of the engine but it was nothing a seasoned helmsman would not deal with and did.

thanks for the details and i will check things out as they come along. Good luck with the S boat, they were amazing craft...and luckily we have managed to save one which is being restored to full wartime condition. The one i was aboard in the 1970s was in sad shape but you could still see the beauty of her lines and the magnificent design.

Chuck, i am assuming your cfg retains the add ons from the PT including the use of the guagues and the weapons effects? thanks
 
Does anyone know of a waterway that undulates a bit, but not anywhere near as much as the Thames?
Or a way of flattening out the Thames etc? I've tried the free UK meshes and done the terrain.cfg fix.
 
Hi Pam. OK, this is PT-117 with the Centerpoint moved per drawing, both external and internal model.
A note to every one else. Do not use this model set with any other config or FDE sets, it will mess up the works, as the static center is moved a long way up.
This is something Warchild is cooking up. Pam; let me know when you`ve got the modified file so I can delete it.
View attachment 83453
 
Meanwhile, while we wait, here are the Green and Grey panels and gauges I've done. Both 4:3 and 16:9 configs. The night coloring is pitiful at best.
The FDE that is included, is far, very far, from perfect, but, it will make the Tachometers functionally accurate.
I did my best to make it run like it's RW counterpart, but, I really struggled with getting anywhere near stable speeds. Reverse is one speed only, ~3knots. I got tired of trying. Two weeks of nothing but trying. :blind:
I also did a quicky "PT-103" Grey livery so you'd have something to use the grey panel with.

Sooner, or later, I'll learn enough to do all of this stuff properly.
Get the attachment soon. It won't be here long...Don
 
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