Engine damage

[Pat Pattle]

A very basic question which I should know after all these years but Barnstorms thread got me thinking, in some aircraft fm's you cannot damage the engine even at full throttle, wep, cowls shut etc. etc.

What parameters in the air or cfg files determine this? I want to overheat!

 

[lewis11777]

I am wondering about this as well. I notice that when some aircraft you are flying explode or take significant damage the engine will quit. With others nothing seems to kill the engine. Can that be changed? If so how?

 

[hairyspin]

In aircraft.cfg, [piston engine] section there is - or should be - entries for emergency boost, but since the default boost duration is 5 minutes (if unspecified) I'm not sure that's the end of the story.

There are specified temperature and pressure limits in the .air file, so that's where I'd look for answers. Hope this helps!


@lewis - I'd check the .xdp to see if the damage model includes the engine. If damage isn't modelled there, you have an invincible engine!

 

[Pat Pattle]

Tom I think the XDP only defines damage effects ie. smoke, coolant etc. and not actual damage though mis-managment (afaik)

I've been running a few tests with various Spits. I would have thought that the AvH fm's were the benchmark but flying the IXe on full power & wep the engine was damaged after around 3 or 4 mins but the coolant temperature was still only in the mid-90's and oil pressure remained around the same thoughout. Surely this temp would have gone sky high and the oil pressure would have dropped? CFS3 doesn't model engine damage to this degree it seems. I'm sure in the past though that I've had engines die after a good thrashing, anyone else had the same?

Next tests are to substitute fs9 fm's for the cfs3 ones (they drop straight in other than the first few lines of the header in the cfg file - FS9 does model engine damage.

Btw have also found along the way that the Defiant oil & coolant temp gauges don't work and neither does the AvH Spit IX boost gauge. These are probably known issues though.

 

[dewoitine]

I have been running with a H75 : 15 mn, throttle 100% (why no more like IL2 ?), engine temperature 214c, nothing!
I read also [engine piston] and maybe it's the solution !

 

[NachtPiloten]

Dear ole' CFS3 does not have the best damage code. Engines will overheat if you have a coolant leak. If your oil cooler or reservoir are holed then that too will cause failure and temperatures to increase.

I do not think porting in a FS9 cfg or airfile will enhance damage effects. I believe that these are hardcoded. Hope I am wrong!!!

 

[hairyspin]

Tom I think the XDP only defines damage effects ie. smoke, coolant etc. and not actual damage though mis-managment (afaik)

I must take more care over what I writted: I meant bullet and blast damage modelling in the .xdp - if it's not there you can shell the plane with the Tsetse Mosquito's gun and the engine will keep running.

Btw have also found along the way that the Defiant oil & coolant temp gauges don't work and neither does the AvH Spit IX boost gauge. These are probably known issues though.

Erm, all these gauges work in my installs of these aircraft ... that said, the Spit's boost gauge is a touch wonky: it climbs towards +12psi iirc and then suddenly swings back down to -4psi at nearly full throttle. It's the same in the stock Mk.IXe, because the AvH model is the stock model with the flight and damage models overhauled and some better paintwork. The gauge is modelled into the .m3d, as all gauges are, so we can't do anything to fix it.

I was thinking about thrashing an engine until it dies when I remembered - we had this in AvH CFS2 models with the RealityX dll, perhaps that's what you're remembering? Even FSX doesn't do this properly unless you write custom code to simulate it.


@dewoitine - the Hawk was air cooled, so the temperature you're getting will be cylinder head temperature - there's no coolant to boil!

 

[greycap.raf]

I once tried fiddling with these values until I got some differences. Which differences, I really don't remember but something was changed. I'll give it another try tomorrow.

These are from a Bf 109G if anyone's interested.

Record: 0540 Engine EGT
FIELD 0x540 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 EGT Scale Factor
FIELD 0x540 0x8 DOUBLE 1660.000000 *EGT Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x540 0x10 DOUBLE 2.000000 *EGT Rate of Change

Record: 0541 Engine CHT
FIELD 0x541 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 CHT Scale Factor
FIELD 0x541 0x8 DOUBLE 0.650000 *CHT Cooling Factor
FIELD 0x541 0x10 DOUBLE 960.000000 *CHT Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x541 0x18 DOUBLE 0.015000 *CHT Rate of Change

Record: 0542 Engine Radiator Temperature
FIELD 0x542 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 Water Temp Scale Factor
FIELD 0x542 0x8 DOUBLE 0.050000 *Water Temp Cooling Factor
FIELD 0x542 0x10 DOUBLE 670.000000 *Water Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x542 0x18 DOUBLE 0.020000 *Water Temp Rate of Change

Record: 0543 Engine Oil Temperature
FIELD 0x543 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 Oil Temp Scale Factor
FIELD 0x543 0x8 DOUBLE 0.210000 *Oil Temp Cooling Factor
FIELD 0x543 0x10 DOUBLE 700.000000 *Oil Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x543 0x18 DOUBLE 0.030000 *Oil Temp Rate of Change

 

[popsaka]

...one in particular I've always found annoying is the Merlin engine quitting after a minor hit, 4 or 5 minutes later and =kaput!= ...it would be so wonderful if, prior to this there was a rise in temp or a drop in pressure to increase the pilot's situational awareness... ''...'scuze me but wasn't that your propeller?''

 

[Pat Pattle]

I once tried fiddling with these values until I got some differences. Which differences, I really don't remember but something was changed. I'll give it another try tomorrow.

Record: 0540 Engine EGT
FIELD 0x540 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 EGT Scale Factor
FIELD 0x540 0x8 DOUBLE 1660.000000 *EGT Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x540 0x10 DOUBLE 2.000000 *EGT Rate of Change

Record: 0541 Engine CHT
FIELD 0x541 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 CHT Scale Factor
FIELD 0x541 0x8 DOUBLE 0.650000 *CHT Cooling Factor
FIELD 0x541 0x10 DOUBLE 960.000000 *CHT Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x541 0x18 DOUBLE 0.015000 *CHT Rate of Change

Record: 0542 Engine Radiator Temperature
FIELD 0x542 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 Water Temp Scale Factor
FIELD 0x542 0x8 DOUBLE 0.050000 *Water Temp Cooling Factor
FIELD 0x542 0x10 DOUBLE 670.000000 *Water Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x542 0x18 DOUBLE 0.020000 *Water Temp Rate of Change

Record: 0543 Engine Oil Temperature
FIELD 0x543 0x0 DOUBLE 1.000000 Oil Temp Scale Factor
FIELD 0x543 0x8 DOUBLE 0.210000 *Oil Temp Cooling Factor
FIELD 0x543 0x10 DOUBLE 700.000000 *Oil Temp Limit (deg R)
FIELD 0x543 0x18 DOUBLE 0.030000 *Oil Temp Rate of Change

Where are these parameters please Greycap, I can't find them.



Having tested the same flight model in FS9 and CFS3 I've concluded that there's not much difference between the sims in that respect other than engine damage in fs9 is probably applied through the code and is set up externally of the FM's.

In both, on hard settings you can fly around all day at full power with the cowl flaps etc closed and the coolant and oil reach a max temp and nowt happens. At least cfs3 is in good company!

I was thinking about thrashing an engine until it dies when I remembered - we had this in AvH CFS2 models with the RealityX dll, perhaps that's what you're remembering? Even FSX doesn't do this properly unless you write custom code to simulate it.

I think you're right about cfs2 Tom, also BoB2 has this feature as well but I'll have to reinstall it to confirm).


edit - just thinking...does OFF P3 have better engine damage? I bought a copy but can barely run it on my stoneage PC.

There was something in the press about improvements in this area. amonst others. I wish WM and team would apply their knowledge to 'normal' CFS3, I'd pay for it!

 

[NachtPiloten]

They would be .....

..... in the airfile. You'll need aired to see them. This is how many behind the scenes twaeks and finements are made to airfiles that are not made using other apporaches.

get it here

 

[Pat Pattle]

Thanks Ted, I already have and use Air ed (for simple modding!), what I can't see is where Greycaps entries for the '109 are within its airfile.

 

[greycap.raf]

I'm actually not sure if AirEd shows them, I use AirUpdate which dumps the entire air file into a text file and those entries are from that file.

 

[Pat Pattle]

Thanks greycap, will give it a try!

http://www.mudpond.org/utilities_index.html

 

[NachtPiloten]

well

I uploaded an airfile this morning before work and all the fields were there including the ones listed above. Of course, this airfile was made using airwrench, but that should not matter as these are basic engine parameters.

 

[Pat Pattle]

I uploaded an airfile this morning before work and all the fields were there including the ones listed above. Of course, this airfile was made using airwrench, but that should not matter as these are basic engine parameters.

You'll have to forgive my naivety Ted!

I'll admit that fm's are like a black art to me so this is something new to learn (hopefully). The txt file generated from Air update is easier on the eye to me than the Aired version.

Either way, maybe something will come of all this! What I'd like to happen is that if the engine is ill treated it cuts out.

 

[greycap.raf]

What I'd like to happen is that if the engine is ill treated it cuts out.

I can now confirm that it's possible to wreck an engine with no battle damage, just by overly high temperatures. Some teething trouble has arisen though, such as only getting to around 25 degrees Celsius before the prop stops for the last time... but it can be done. I just don't know how to do it convincingly yet.

 

[hairyspin]

AIR file editors

There is another (free) option: Aircraft Airfile Manager 2.2 or AAM. It shows the data directly, including tables 540 to 545 as per Rene's post. It's designed for FSX but will handle earlier FS and CFS .air files.

http://www.flightsim.com/kdl.php?fid=139530