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The Staff of SOH
Exhaust flare/flashes
- Thread starter gecko
- Start date
Pat Pattle
SOH-CM-2025
Excellent! Looking forward to seeing those!
That racing Fury sounds like an interesting device; but also like it has departed the bounds of sanity. As Hairyspin said, a big difference between an in-service engine and one that risks going for only a few minutes; and at that, perhaps having a relatively unlimited budget available to it. Perhaps disregard its length of exhaust gas (have n't seen the video) as wartime reference; but the colours of its gas might still be relevant to those sorts of engines and simulations.
[Background only. Even just in freight operations without wartime demands and mechanical loads on the engines, it was an ongoing battle to keep 'em up to scratch and porducing max power (airframes always at gross, or over, weights). Cylinder bolts would stretch, cylinders would get cracks and fail, exhausts loose with vibration, sheet metal, lines, etc would shift. Basically just waiting for the next 'issue': when, not if. (Many stories would have been written)
Wouldn't expect the 'racer' to come back very often in war]
The colours in daytime? Maybe a touch at take-off on the Bristol, as there was so much coming out (but hard to renember, as in daylight there's much more to look around at so you don't recall or focus on the exhaust as much); but definitely far less/nothing like night. I think you would't see anything by the time throttled back to cruise power in day.
But of course, by night as previous post, the show would go on!
Just a thought, (I don't know where to find them) wondering if there are any wartime shots from engine test cells or engine stands; maybe used in development work and in routine production. Recently these are used. I think test cells existed in the war (they had to send spare engines before they ran in the airframe). So maybe Rolls, RAE, MoD, etc have some archives shots or movies. As above, there were projects ongoing to hide flames. Results, somewhere.
Your effects above: the second one has the best flame overall colour down its length, but if it had the blue mixed in from the first one to give it overall blue shade (more 'Bluer' at the start), but the yellow mixed through as streaks, would be good. (the first one is too delineated: the yellow cuts short, with a too-pure blue trail.) May be wrong, but thinking (the reverse way) the clear blue, streaked oxy-torch like flame direct from the outlet followed by the yellow streaks in it, becoming yellower and oranger (more like your second shot), as the plume flows downstream. [Have no idea how hard this is to set up as effects ,sorry].
It's hard just with words, aint it?
Individual stack timings you have, sound great. You could pprobably even count 'em on start, in the real (Bristol). Also slightly pulsing, downstrea. (even more complex..)
Sorry about rambling. Thanks for all your hard work.
[Background only. Even just in freight operations without wartime demands and mechanical loads on the engines, it was an ongoing battle to keep 'em up to scratch and porducing max power (airframes always at gross, or over, weights). Cylinder bolts would stretch, cylinders would get cracks and fail, exhausts loose with vibration, sheet metal, lines, etc would shift. Basically just waiting for the next 'issue': when, not if. (Many stories would have been written)
Wouldn't expect the 'racer' to come back very often in war]
The colours in daytime? Maybe a touch at take-off on the Bristol, as there was so much coming out (but hard to renember, as in daylight there's much more to look around at so you don't recall or focus on the exhaust as much); but definitely far less/nothing like night. I think you would't see anything by the time throttled back to cruise power in day.
But of course, by night as previous post, the show would go on!
Just a thought, (I don't know where to find them) wondering if there are any wartime shots from engine test cells or engine stands; maybe used in development work and in routine production. Recently these are used. I think test cells existed in the war (they had to send spare engines before they ran in the airframe). So maybe Rolls, RAE, MoD, etc have some archives shots or movies. As above, there were projects ongoing to hide flames. Results, somewhere.
Your effects above: the second one has the best flame overall colour down its length, but if it had the blue mixed in from the first one to give it overall blue shade (more 'Bluer' at the start), but the yellow mixed through as streaks, would be good. (the first one is too delineated: the yellow cuts short, with a too-pure blue trail.) May be wrong, but thinking (the reverse way) the clear blue, streaked oxy-torch like flame direct from the outlet followed by the yellow streaks in it, becoming yellower and oranger (more like your second shot), as the plume flows downstream. [Have no idea how hard this is to set up as effects ,sorry].
It's hard just with words, aint it?
Individual stack timings you have, sound great. You could pprobably even count 'em on start, in the real (Bristol). Also slightly pulsing, downstrea. (even more complex..)
Sorry about rambling. Thanks for all your hard work.
Apologies to Tom and everyone for negative comments/ foot in mouth re 'September'; beautiful aircraft of course, seen video now.
It and flares are represenatative of the era; colour might be a tad bluer due racing fuel mix, as said above. Bit hard to pin, though.
For Gecko.
In the Hercules setup, one can't see to the exhaust port so don't see the yellow bit at the start of the flare as in video and in your first shot. But the generally (maybe less) blue comes out, followed by some streaks of yellow/orange mixing-in further downstram; in addition more of these steaks on random intermittant basis a bit like 'September's' ocassional flashes when accelerating from an over-rich start. This Herc. flame description might be good for your Merlin/Allison simulations etc, as of course the manifolds turn and return aft to slipstream (you don't get to look inside towards exhaust port like 'September', not straight).
So I reckon start with your "Shot 1", remove the orange from start of flare and mix in a bit of yellow from "shot 2" [but not as much] in the downstream blue flare you've got. Sort of a mixture of both shots. Would try and add in some of the intermittants as well, if poss., as above.
Viz: you could start with the straight aft blue flare from "september", add a bit of yellow towards the end, plus intermittants as above.
Only my humble thoughts; hope constructive this time, previous post a washout.
It and flares are represenatative of the era; colour might be a tad bluer due racing fuel mix, as said above. Bit hard to pin, though.
For Gecko.
In the Hercules setup, one can't see to the exhaust port so don't see the yellow bit at the start of the flare as in video and in your first shot. But the generally (maybe less) blue comes out, followed by some streaks of yellow/orange mixing-in further downstram; in addition more of these steaks on random intermittant basis a bit like 'September's' ocassional flashes when accelerating from an over-rich start. This Herc. flame description might be good for your Merlin/Allison simulations etc, as of course the manifolds turn and return aft to slipstream (you don't get to look inside towards exhaust port like 'September', not straight).
So I reckon start with your "Shot 1", remove the orange from start of flare and mix in a bit of yellow from "shot 2" [but not as much] in the downstream blue flare you've got. Sort of a mixture of both shots. Would try and add in some of the intermittants as well, if poss., as above.
Viz: you could start with the straight aft blue flare from "september", add a bit of yellow towards the end, plus intermittants as above.
Only my humble thoughts; hope constructive this time, previous post a washout.
gecko
Charter Member
Thanks for your input, it helps. I'll be running them through a revision on length and color soon. These apply to short stubs that go with a single cylinder, what about those that are grouped with 2 or more cylinders or for longer pipes?
On engine start effects, just spent a week hanging around the EAA's B-17 and saw lots of starts on those engines. There was a major difference in the amount of smoke between starts after the aircraft had been sitting for a day vs. after only a short time between flights. As I assume that the ground crew would have run up our aircraft prior to the mission, we should be seeing very little smoke on startup in CFS3.
On engine start effects, just spent a week hanging around the EAA's B-17 and saw lots of starts on those engines. There was a major difference in the amount of smoke between starts after the aircraft had been sitting for a day vs. after only a short time between flights. As I assume that the ground crew would have run up our aircraft prior to the mission, we should be seeing very little smoke on startup in CFS3.
That's a very good point! The 2nd Tactical Air Force started its Tempests every hour through the night to keep the engines warmed and the oil at a useable temperature, plus there are many accounts of fighters being ground-run prior to operations so pilots could just push the starter/boost coil and go at the appointed time ("Press tits at 10.30 hours, chaps"). You could also vary exhaust flame effects with engine temperature - if CFS3 would let us do that - but we're talking about CFS3, not FSX, and I really don't think it can be done. I'd suggest effects should be made to display the effects of engines at proper running temperatures, not startup (or over-boost!) so they look right most of the time, not occasionally.
This is turning into an intriguing discussion, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
gecko
Charter Member
Agreed. I can think of very few situations in which the engine would not have been run up beforehand. Unfortunately, I think effects can only be triggered by speed in cfs3. I've searched for a long time for more useful triggers, but haven't found any. I'm triggering flames at high speeds on the assumption that the engine is running at high power when the aircraft is going that fast and at a lower setting at lower speeds. Obviously, this is not always the case, but "normaly" it ought to be correct.
Another area I'm finding is smoke during normal operation. DB60x series engines, with their unique fluid coupling system leave quite a mess behind no matter the power setting or fuel type. All engines apparently would produce a puff of smoke with sudden throttle changes (much more noticeable on DB engines). I've also seen reference to smoke from heavy aircraft at high power settings. What I've not heard is if there was a noticeable difference between smoke produced by 87 and 100 octane (or equivalents).
Anybody have any insights on these areas?
Another area I'm finding is smoke during normal operation. DB60x series engines, with their unique fluid coupling system leave quite a mess behind no matter the power setting or fuel type. All engines apparently would produce a puff of smoke with sudden throttle changes (much more noticeable on DB engines). I've also seen reference to smoke from heavy aircraft at high power settings. What I've not heard is if there was a noticeable difference between smoke produced by 87 and 100 octane (or equivalents).
Anybody have any insights on these areas?
For longer pipes suggest just a bit of blue going into yellow, just similar to cruise for stubs. Viz: for longer ones, once it gets to yellow, stays there. Nothing different/special. Just a ad more blue at the front end for take off.
See above for comments on output from collector rings on Pratts: same. Just the collector ring exits might have a bit more blue since shorter.
Think super-long pipes might tend to reduce effects: due (convective) cooling on exterior metal surface; gas energy maybe reduced a bit on exit/slipstream mixing.
Re Octane and effects, it's only gut feeling ('cause have n't set on up to watch), but suspect would n't be a huge change if the Octane Nos. were fairly close per your example [the min octane's got to be enough for it to run properly without diaster, anyway]. Maybe higher Octanes, say 145, might tend to give a tad more blue: bit like 'September'. In war, expect the ignition would be set for the fuel they expect, so probably the lower Oct. No., as a bit of fiddling, of course, to set it. Would n't expect the time to reset timing every time a new fuel load came in. Wheras, 'September' would be perfectly set to whatever special fuel they might have.
Oil temps: wonder if either side had 'hot air warmers' blowing on the oil coolers while in readiness?
Smoke on start: sounds like your B17s(?) have low time/low wear engines; properly so. The Pratts above, inspite of legal/required maintenance (done normally) alwyays had oil consumption issues. Valve guides wear a major culprit. To be fair never really had quick turn-arounds you describe, due freight and fuel loading any maintenance, weather, air traffic, etc. So: there was always a reasonable amount of start smoke (nearly always started properly), which got worse with all 4 going. As warmed on taxy, burnt more (guess getting thinner); so the look of a 'minor bushfire' following behind it, in daylight. Taste it too!
But tended to go away on higher power ground/magneto check; then airborne clean and flares as above, any oil properly burnt and mixed in the exhaust.
Taxy after landing, was still the mobile bushfire, with evrything truly warm. Bristol behaved itself though (think due sleeve-valves), was a thorough-bred and didn't display that. Just a few wisps now again on start, normal for that size of thing.
Don't know if the model allows, but could be good if the blues and yellows vary a bit over time: viz not just steady blue all the time like 'September', even though it does it on ground (it's nice'n perfect); random in-service efffects (Occasional, not that bad). Sorry if repeating.
Well, you'll prob. wake up with total engine failure from dry tanks now: been going that long.
See above for comments on output from collector rings on Pratts: same. Just the collector ring exits might have a bit more blue since shorter.
Think super-long pipes might tend to reduce effects: due (convective) cooling on exterior metal surface; gas energy maybe reduced a bit on exit/slipstream mixing.
Re Octane and effects, it's only gut feeling ('cause have n't set on up to watch), but suspect would n't be a huge change if the Octane Nos. were fairly close per your example [the min octane's got to be enough for it to run properly without diaster, anyway]. Maybe higher Octanes, say 145, might tend to give a tad more blue: bit like 'September'. In war, expect the ignition would be set for the fuel they expect, so probably the lower Oct. No., as a bit of fiddling, of course, to set it. Would n't expect the time to reset timing every time a new fuel load came in. Wheras, 'September' would be perfectly set to whatever special fuel they might have.
Oil temps: wonder if either side had 'hot air warmers' blowing on the oil coolers while in readiness?
Smoke on start: sounds like your B17s(?) have low time/low wear engines; properly so. The Pratts above, inspite of legal/required maintenance (done normally) alwyays had oil consumption issues. Valve guides wear a major culprit. To be fair never really had quick turn-arounds you describe, due freight and fuel loading any maintenance, weather, air traffic, etc. So: there was always a reasonable amount of start smoke (nearly always started properly), which got worse with all 4 going. As warmed on taxy, burnt more (guess getting thinner); so the look of a 'minor bushfire' following behind it, in daylight. Taste it too!
But tended to go away on higher power ground/magneto check; then airborne clean and flares as above, any oil properly burnt and mixed in the exhaust.
Taxy after landing, was still the mobile bushfire, with evrything truly warm. Bristol behaved itself though (think due sleeve-valves), was a thorough-bred and didn't display that. Just a few wisps now again on start, normal for that size of thing.
Don't know if the model allows, but could be good if the blues and yellows vary a bit over time: viz not just steady blue all the time like 'September', even though it does it on ground (it's nice'n perfect); random in-service efffects (Occasional, not that bad). Sorry if repeating.
Well, you'll prob. wake up with total engine failure from dry tanks now: been going that long.
gecko
Charter Member
Got back around to working on this one, here's some shots of my latest effort. They are about 1/3 the length of what they were and the colors have been revised slightly. Unfortunately the level of detail you describe icutler is more than cfs3 can handle, so what I'm shooting for here is a compromise that hopefully won't be too far off for most of the aircraft we have.
Blue for 100 octane, has a slight yellow/orange tinge at the end, a little less visible than in the shot in the actual sim:
View attachment 69447
More orange/yellow for 87 octane/B4 fuels.
View attachment 69448
All suggestions welcome!
Daniel
Blue for 100 octane, has a slight yellow/orange tinge at the end, a little less visible than in the shot in the actual sim:
View attachment 69447
More orange/yellow for 87 octane/B4 fuels.
View attachment 69448
All suggestions welcome!
Daniel
Looks pretty good. With CFS3 limitations, is it possible to shorten the orange bit down to say the last few 'pixels/lines', so it's just mostly the end? (The Hurri. shot). Maybe the blue could go a tad brighter, but not too much, (yet).
The perspective on the flares on '109 looks good.
For daytime flares, have checked an old wall-calendar shot of 'Spit. F Mk V5b', G-MKVB, S/N BM597 (would say contemporary restoration job, very original)
climbing out roughly at 500/1000+ Ft; no flares seen.
Also a wall hanging (good exhaust view) of an ex-RAAF Mustang (probably original, rather than restored) in the circuit in early 80's, throttled back for camera-ship; and no flares seen.
So for correctness, not much day flares.
Sometimes, sadly for CFS3 (in spite of all above chat), as have to admit when I've occasionally seen a model with the flares in a day scene, have to admit I thought it 'looked kinda cute', with something different different to see, 'pretty' and seemed to fit the scenario. But in the end, correct modelling is best, a la' AvHist approach.
For daytime flares, have checked an old wall-calendar shot of 'Spit. F Mk V5b', G-MKVB, S/N BM597 (would say contemporary restoration job, very original)
climbing out roughly at 500/1000+ Ft; no flares seen.
Also a wall hanging (good exhaust view) of an ex-RAAF Mustang (probably original, rather than restored) in the circuit in early 80's, throttled back for camera-ship; and no flares seen.
So for correctness, not much day flares.
Sometimes, sadly for CFS3 (in spite of all above chat), as have to admit when I've occasionally seen a model with the flares in a day scene, have to admit I thought it 'looked kinda cute', with something different different to see, 'pretty' and seemed to fit the scenario. But in the end, correct modelling is best, a la' AvHist approach.
gecko
Charter Member
It's possible, still working on getting the colors "right".
I have revised my startup effect too. I had a really great looking one for a fiery start, but have gone with a more subdued effect (smoke only) to be more consistent with the engine having already been warmed up by the ground crew. Still, each stub can be seen to fire individually.
I have revised my startup effect too. I had a really great looking one for a fiery start, but have gone with a more subdued effect (smoke only) to be more consistent with the engine having already been warmed up by the ground crew. Still, each stub can be seen to fire individually.
FOO FIGHTER
Charter Member
If I understand you correctly, this might be what you are looking for?
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_haze" MinThrottle="-10" MaxThrottle="400" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_slow_p80" MinThrottle="-10" MaxThrottle="30" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_low_p80" MinThrottle="30" MaxThrottle="55" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_med_p80" MinThrottle="55" MaxThrottle="85" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_high_p80" MinThrottle="85" MaxThrottle="400" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
Taken from the stock P-80. I would think that you would only have to change EffectName & Location and then adjust the throttle settings to your liking.
Pat Pattle
SOH-CM-2025
Originally Posted by gecko
If there were a way to base effects on throttle setting, it would be way better. AFAIK this is only possible with jets in CFS3. If that were possible then the effects would show any time you're at full throttle (including take off).
If I understand you correctly, this might be what you are looking for?
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_haze" MinThrottle="-10" MaxThrottle="400" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_slow_p80" MinThrottle="-10" MaxThrottle="30" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_low_p80" MinThrottle="30" MaxThrottle="55" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_med_p80" MinThrottle="55" MaxThrottle="85" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
<Effect Type="JetExhaust0" EffectName="fx_jet_high_p80" MinThrottle="85" MaxThrottle="400" Location="emitter_jet_c" />
Taken from the stock P-80. I would think that you would only have to change EffectName & Location and then adjust the throttle settings to your liking.
I like your thinking Foo! I'm guessing that the throttle link is hard coded to the emitter name, if the model had those emitters then you could call up whatever effects you like.
gecko
Charter Member
I think it's actaully tied in to the JetExhaust0 value, which is only supported on aircraft which have a jet engine. I've even tried to add an invisible (and thrust-less) jet engine to a prop driven aircraft to get this effect, but it causes way more problems than it solves. Would be thrilled to death to be proven wrong though!
FOO FIGHTER
Charter Member
It appears to me that MinThrottle= & MaxThrottle= only work on jets and not tied to any other particular entity. I tried them in different combinations with Effect Type & Location but the effects stayed on constantly even at low speed.
This may not be perfect but might get you closer to what you are looking for. Replace MinThrottle & MaxThrottle with MinVel & MaxVel and it will give more options within the effects line to play with. I tried these out on the stock P-47D-25 and it works pretty good. The afterburner FX are only on below 100mph & above 200mph. Again you will have to adjust velocity and location settings to your liking.
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_haze" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_slow" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_low" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_med" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_fire_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_slow" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_low" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_med" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_fire_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
This may not be perfect but might get you closer to what you are looking for. Replace MinThrottle & MaxThrottle with MinVel & MaxVel and it will give more options within the effects line to play with. I tried these out on the stock P-47D-25 and it works pretty good. The afterburner FX are only on below 100mph & above 200mph. Again you will have to adjust velocity and location settings to your liking.
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_haze" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_slow" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_low" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_med" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_fire_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" PosX="4.57" PosY="-0.1" PosZ="-1.5"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_slow" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_low" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_med" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r"/>
<Effect Type="Track" EffectName="fx_jet_fire_high" MinVel="100" MaxVel="200" Location="emitter_eng0_exh_r" />
gecko
Charter Member
Yeah, that's the method I'm currently using. I have the flames set to appear when the aircraft reaches about 65% of its max speed at sea level. This ensures some speed cushion when the aircraft is maneuvering at full throttle and keeps the flames on.
I'm thinking I might add a short spurt at very low speed as well to simulate going to full throttle on takeoff. Trouble is it will still show up at idle when landing.
I'm thinking I might add a short spurt at very low speed as well to simulate going to full throttle on takeoff. Trouble is it will still show up at idle when landing.
FOO FIGHTER
Charter Member
I'll say one thing, CFS3 really forces you to look at how things work in the background and draws you into tweaking something. Once you get hooked, then it becomes a never ending Calculus problem. I think my IQ has doubled since I first started to mod things!:isadizzy::mixedsmi: