BoeingvsAirbusNKL
Charter Member
I researched the General Dynamics/Grumman F-111B and I looked for a f-111b for flightsim. I only found a texture for Alphasim F-111F/G and FB-111 package. IS anyone up for making the F-111B?
F-111B
- Thread starter BoeingvsAirbusNKL
- Start date
If you don't mind no VC, Mike Stone did the C and F versions, along with an EF Raven.
http://www.gjsmith.net/Mike-Stone/Page_3.htm
http://www.gjsmith.net/Mike-Stone/Page_3.htm
Mick
SOH-CM-2024
The F-111B was a worthless piece of crap.
It's not worth remembering, much less modeling!
It's only legacy (aside from proving that Robert McNamara was an idiot) was that it bequeathed the abominable TF30 engine to the F-14, preventing the Tomcat from being the fighter it should have been.
Bah!
It's not worth remembering, much less modeling!
It's only legacy (aside from proving that Robert McNamara was an idiot) was that it bequeathed the abominable TF30 engine to the F-14, preventing the Tomcat from being the fighter it should have been.
Bah!
BoeingvsAirbusNKL
Charter Member
I know you don't like the F-111B, Mick. But i don't like the word crap even though i use it.
And the radar, and the Phoenix missiles, and ....
andersel
Charter Member 2014
HorusJ
Charter Member
Another example of McNamara's legacy (beside his tragic 'Nam strategies) was his ill-conceived "Unified Aircraft Designation System" which did away with the U.S.Navy's system and has left past and present generations of av. enthusiasts totally befuddled, as in F-6F Hellcat, S-2F Tracker and P-2V Neptune.
The irony is that the trigger for that change was McNamara's personal confusion between the TFX and the F-111A/B which, of course, were the same bird. So, because the Big Man was confused, a new system was forced on everyone. Seems to be Governments' SOP.
- H52
Jagdflieger
Jr. Admin
McNamara and his "Whiz Kids" probably did almost as much damage to the US Military as the combined efforts of our enemies from the last several wars!
One can argue that our current moribund weapons procurement process is the misbegotten and bastard child of the "systems analysis" concept that he foisted on the military under his tenure. It took the wants and needs of the individual services and consolidated the function at the highest stratospheric levels of government. Apparently he felt that bureaucrats (often without military experience) knew more about what a serviceman needed than the soldier, sailor or airman did. It was supposed to save money and streamline procurement; but in the end, it only exacerbated problems inherent to the process and often denied the soldier what he needed. I think that we are still suffering in some ways from his hubris.
One can argue that our current moribund weapons procurement process is the misbegotten and bastard child of the "systems analysis" concept that he foisted on the military under his tenure. It took the wants and needs of the individual services and consolidated the function at the highest stratospheric levels of government. Apparently he felt that bureaucrats (often without military experience) knew more about what a serviceman needed than the soldier, sailor or airman did. It was supposed to save money and streamline procurement; but in the end, it only exacerbated problems inherent to the process and often denied the soldier what he needed. I think that we are still suffering in some ways from his hubris.
There are idiots in all countries, problem is, we vote them in.
Our McNamara eqivalent was Duncan Sandys who decided, back in 1957, that the day of the manned aircraft was over & missiles were the way forward. He decided that there were too many aviation companies in the UK (which, to be fair, there probably were) and decided that they should be 'persuaded' to merge - for persuaded, think shotgun wedding.
So we ended up with one helicopter firm, Westland, who swallowed up Fairey, Saunders-Roe & Bristol's helicopter work; problem was, Westland were pretty much in bed with Silorsky, so that merger spelt the end of Rotodyne, Belvedere (maybe not totally a bad thing) and a lot of independent research. It also meant Saro were out of the fixed wing market, at the very point when the SR177 needed positive focus & marketing; it may be contraversial to say it, but I think it would have taken a very large chunk out of Lockheed's Starfighter sales.
And we ended up with two main players in the fixed wing market, BAC and Hawker Siddeley, and a handful of independents, including Handley Page. We lost the Avro 730, the F155 project (the next generation of interceptor), Hawker lost any real chance of being able to sell the 'British Phantom' the P1121 - we kept the Lightning, but it was forced to stay in service longer than it should have, because of the cancellation of it's successor. And we got the TSR2, which I love dearly, but was a classic case of letting a committee run things & overcomplicate matters.
A lot of people accuse Denis Healey of killing the UK air industry (and he is pretty culpable); but all Healey did was read it the last rites, Duncan Sandys was the man who stuck the knife in.
OK, rant over.
Tom, what are the chances that Mike maight still have his F-111 sources files & could be persuaded to look at the -B?
Our McNamara eqivalent was Duncan Sandys who decided, back in 1957, that the day of the manned aircraft was over & missiles were the way forward. He decided that there were too many aviation companies in the UK (which, to be fair, there probably were) and decided that they should be 'persuaded' to merge - for persuaded, think shotgun wedding.
So we ended up with one helicopter firm, Westland, who swallowed up Fairey, Saunders-Roe & Bristol's helicopter work; problem was, Westland were pretty much in bed with Silorsky, so that merger spelt the end of Rotodyne, Belvedere (maybe not totally a bad thing) and a lot of independent research. It also meant Saro were out of the fixed wing market, at the very point when the SR177 needed positive focus & marketing; it may be contraversial to say it, but I think it would have taken a very large chunk out of Lockheed's Starfighter sales.
And we ended up with two main players in the fixed wing market, BAC and Hawker Siddeley, and a handful of independents, including Handley Page. We lost the Avro 730, the F155 project (the next generation of interceptor), Hawker lost any real chance of being able to sell the 'British Phantom' the P1121 - we kept the Lightning, but it was forced to stay in service longer than it should have, because of the cancellation of it's successor. And we got the TSR2, which I love dearly, but was a classic case of letting a committee run things & overcomplicate matters.
A lot of people accuse Denis Healey of killing the UK air industry (and he is pretty culpable); but all Healey did was read it the last rites, Duncan Sandys was the man who stuck the knife in.
OK, rant over.
Tom, what are the chances that Mike maight still have his F-111 sources files & could be persuaded to look at the -B?
BoeingvsAirbusNKL
Charter Member
How about AlphaOldies. the company Alphasim, now VirtAvia, had a F-111. Can you do it alphaoldies?
Right on, Jagdflieger! I had forgotten about his infamous Whiz Kids and their obsessive "systems analysis". But then, I tend to blockout unpleasant memories
BTW, the whole nation became enthused with the "systems analysis" bit, and it found its way into the business world...and spawned the present-day glut of MBAs.
Why is it bureaucrats (think) they know more about anything than anyone else, huh? Just look around you, from local "authorities" to D.C.
[Hmmm, better not go there!]
- H52
BTW, the whole nation became enthused with the "systems analysis" bit, and it found its way into the business world...and spawned the present-day glut of MBAs.
Why is it bureaucrats (think) they know more about anything than anyone else, huh? Just look around you, from local "authorities" to D.C.
[Hmmm, better not go there!]
- H52
He may have the source files, and I can ask about the B. I'll try to mention it next time I talk to him.
strikehawk
Charter Member
For what it's worth, the B models are in the boneyard at China Lake. Having seen these up close I have to wonder, as an AO how the hell did they expect us to load the bomb bay on the flight deck? The average Ordie stands about 5'9" and and they wanted us to load missiles with that little clearance? As stated earlier McNamara was an idiot when it came to the military, JFK should have left him in Detroit 
'ing up the automobile industry.
This is one bird the should be left in the boneyard and forgotten.
'ing up the automobile industry.This is one bird the should be left in the boneyard and forgotten.
Jagdflieger
Jr. Admin
In defense of the Aardvark, it did mature into a pretty good tactical bomber. Its strategic version, used by SAC, never had the range necessary for its mission though; that according to my uncle, a SAC Colonel.
Back in the day, I lazered some targets for it and rarely did the bombs miss.
Back in the day, I lazered some targets for it and rarely did the bombs miss.
I think the Air Force was looking for a replacement for the F-105, a plane to fly high-speed, low-level precision strikes. And I believe history shows it did that well for them.
One source I read claimed that during development it was the Navy that insisted on side-by-side seating, an interesting choice in a plane intended to be a fighter/interceptor. Anyone else heard that?
One source I read claimed that during development it was the Navy that insisted on side-by-side seating, an interesting choice in a plane intended to be a fighter/interceptor. Anyone else heard that?
strikehawk
Charter Member
Never heard that until now, I will still blame the AF for that mistake. Must have been a requirement from the bomber drivers from SAC as TAC and the Navy were on the same page regarding crew seating.
The most ironic thing about this bird was that it was going to prove McNamara's concept of "commonality" as to have the same parts for both the Navy and AF's birds. The thing was that during the lifetime of the 111 there was very little commonality between any of the models, same with the Tomcat. Another thing that proves McNamara and his whiz kids incompetence. As for teething troubles, growing up Henry Gibson recited one of his poems on Laugh In, the F-111 was the punch line.
The most ironic thing about this bird was that it was going to prove McNamara's concept of "commonality" as to have the same parts for both the Navy and AF's birds. The thing was that during the lifetime of the 111 there was very little commonality between any of the models, same with the Tomcat. Another thing that proves McNamara and his whiz kids incompetence. As for teething troubles, growing up Henry Gibson recited one of his poems on Laugh In, the F-111 was the punch line.
From Wikapedia:
In June 1961, Secretary McNamara ordered the go ahead on TFX despite Air Force and the Navy efforts to keep their programs separate. The USAF and the Navy could only agree on swing-wing, two seat, twin engine design features. The USAF wanted a tandem seat aircraft for low level penetration, while the Navy wanted a shorter, high altitude interceptor with side by side seating.[SUP]http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/#cite_note-Gunston_p8-15-3[/SUP]
In June 1961, Secretary McNamara ordered the go ahead on TFX despite Air Force and the Navy efforts to keep their programs separate. The USAF and the Navy could only agree on swing-wing, two seat, twin engine design features. The USAF wanted a tandem seat aircraft for low level penetration, while the Navy wanted a shorter, high altitude interceptor with side by side seating.[SUP]http://www.sim-outhouse.com/sohforums/#cite_note-Gunston_p8-15-3[/SUP]