• There seems to be an uptick in Political comments in recent months. Those of us who are long time members of the site know that Political and Religious content has been banned for years. Nothing has changed. Please leave all political and religious comments out of the forums.

    If you recently joined the forums you were not presented with this restriction in the terms of service. This was due to a conversion error when we went from vBulletin to Xenforo. We have updated our terms of service to reflect these corrections.

    Please note any post refering to a politician will be considered political even if it is intended to be humor. Our experience is these topics have a way of dividing the forums and causing deep resentment among members. It is a poison to the community. We appreciate compliance with the rules.

    The Staff of SOH

  • Server side Maintenance is done. We still have an update to the forum software to run but that one will have to wait for a better time.

F-22 Infighting

For those focused on costs, compare the per unit cost of the F-22 to the Boeing 777. You might be very surprised to note that the F-22 isn't that expensive. Nations someone have the economic means to have purchased hundreds of 777's without so much as wimper of argument.

Err...you can't compare Triple Sevens with Raptors. Boeing's big stick is for private airlines, Lockheeds stealth thing is for the state. The former ist funded privately (unless used by the government for VIP transport, but that would be just a handful of 'em), the latter by the tax payer.
 
While I really like what Obama has done so far for the health care reform, I just wish the F-22's production will eventually continue.

Yes, they are expensive, perhaps even difficult to maintain, but from my point of view they could provide the USAF with a great capability...:(.

Obama, you...:mad:. Like captain Bertorelli would say...'What a mistake-a to make-a!

I hope it's like the C-17...so that the production line will be kept running for a while.
 
IMHO, we don't need that expensive of an airplane anyway (F-22).... How do you use it to fight urban terrorists? (for that matter, the money would be better spent fighting our own home-grown terrorists anyway. Terrorism IS alive and well in rural America, whether you like it or not, or even agree or not....:kilroy:) (steps off his own soapbox...)
 
Err...you can't compare Triple Sevens with Raptors. Boeing's big stick is for private airlines, Lockheeds stealth thing is for the state. The former ist funded privately (unless used by the government for VIP transport, but that would be just a handful of 'em), the latter by the tax payer.

Nonesense! Money is money! The comparison in per unit cost is factual, not opinion.

The source of the money is ancillary to the point that airplane costs have risen across the board and therefore to assert the F-22 is priced to the moon is to miss the point that the 777 (and comparable Airbus models) illustrate it isn't really cost but rather willingness to pay the cost.

Since the entire future of the United States (and our allies) is founded upon the ability to defend ourselves from threats, I personally think the cost to fund the full compliment of F-22's needed to ensure air superiority for the next 50 years was worthwhile.

You may agree or disagree. That is your right. But, it is not logical to try to deflect away the entire factual considerations just because one system is defense and the other private sector.

Ken
 
IMHO, we don't need that expensive of an airplane anyway (F-22).... How do you use it to fight urban terrorists? (for that matter, the money would be better spent fighting our own home-grown terrorists anyway. Terrorism IS alive and well in rural America, whether you like it or not, or even agree or not....:kilroy:) (steps off his own soapbox...)

Sounds like the myopic argument made between the World Wars! You should remember the infamous British Parliamentary decisions to forgo defense outlays on the presumed basis that no threat existed for the next five or so years. That's how Great Britain funded its defense department after the end of World War I.

Sure, it made more money available for other purposes. It also ignored the wise advice of other leaders (like Winston Churchill) who warned it was money foolishly saved.

When 1933 arrived and Hitler seized power, Parliament continued to operate as it did. It wasn't until 1938 that things started to change. But even in 1940, Great Britain was woefully unprepared to fight the war. Only the Royal Navy had the equipment on hand to prevail.

The RAF was lessor in numbers but ahead in technology. The British Army was woefully short in both areas.

When you make a logical analysis of defense costs, it must include the value of what is being protected. Crunch the numbers based upon the combined GNP's of all NATO nations, plus ANZUS, plus Japan and South Korea, and you start to assemble the required facts for the analysis.

We have decided we can "get by" with 182 F-22's. I have heard a few say we didn't need them at all because it "doesn't fight this war." The F-22 would, in fact, be a fine armed ISR platform due to its advanced sensors, payload of bombs, and amazing speed. But, the Army commanders in charge of this war deliberately ordered to Air Force to keep the F-22's out of the GWOT -- a rare example of naked politics akin to the disastrous decisions made by the Navy and Army to stymie development of airpower prior to World War II and for which Billy Mitchell was court martialed. In this case, the decision was on order of Secretary Gates who didn't want the Air Force to demonstrate the F-22's ability to help the GWOT. Such a move would have weakened Gates' case that we needed the money on immediate GWOT needs vice the F-22's the Air Force needs to ensure air superiority.

Just remember, Al Qaeda isn't our sole future challenge. A wise nation keeps its powder dry, but also a robust military able to detour war through ability to prevail against a wide range of future threats.

Ken
 
Please show me any aircraft in the operational test and evaluation period.

Ken

This no reason to by over 100 aircraft for operational test and evaluation.

The F/A-22 program should have stayed with YF/A-22 (A Prototype Fighter) Tell it's operational test and evaluation period and ground-attack capability was completed AND No more than 10 to 12 should have been bought.

So far as I understand it. The US tax payer has payed US$142.6 million per F-22 when it's really not even fit for operational use or just became fit for Operational.

Lets look back.

The F/A-22 program stated in 1986. The first YF-22 flew in September 1990. The F-22 is 20 year old design.The F/A-22 should have been multi-role aircraft. It not.

In the AF's rush to get there new toy it cost the tax payer. Like this.

In February 2007, a group of six Raptors Okinawa, Japan. They multiple computer crashes coincident with their crossing of the 180th meridian of longitude.

Now the tax payer has to update over 100 F-22 for this bug. If th AF had pulled the head out of the @$$e$ they would have only ordered 10 to 12 kept them all "state side" tell operational test and evaluation period and ground-attack capability was completed. Than send two to evey hostile environment .

Two to Alaska since its cold and wet, two to Okinawa since its worm and wet. Two to Afghanistan since it hot and got lots of sand. The US main land covers most of europe.

After deploying YF/A-22 over seas for one or two year Lockheed would have know what need to be in production F-22A saving the tax payer money from having to update 186 other F-22 becouse one got a bug.
 
Well I don't normally get into such things..

But I do think that a weak Military is just a invite to be attacked..
Those who do not Know History are Doomed to repeat it..

Let us not all be decieved by the fact: there are many in this troubled world that HATE the West.
And it shall always be this way..

And if or not the funding is given
A advanced aircraft should whenever possible..
Be used to ensure all may live in Peace and Freedom..

Even if it Never is used in combat ( like the B-36)

It is smart to have the needed items, instead of having to run for cover for the lack of a defence..

That is as stupid as a nation can think, to believe that we are safe enough..

Never decieve yourself's into a false sense of safety..
Things change Very quickly now days..

All of this must be balanced..

The Truth often is lost in all of debates..No one should fear always..
Nor should one always concider themself's always safe..
Look at the truth..
Then deside..
I'll support the need for advanced aircraft Not because I fear some crazy fool, but because with it That crazy Fool just Might think twice before acting..
 
Hm. . . but it was ok to blow billions on Chevy and Chrysler, who were going to ultimately go to bankruptcy anyway. . .



(Sorry - I'll shut up now)
The only thing thats going to bankrupt GM is all the damn yuppies buying all those junkers from across the pond.
 
This no reason to by over 100 aircraft for operational test and evaluation.

Say you.

And this perspective is based upon your vast experience in OT&E of aircraft systems, right?

To help illlustrate my challenge of your understanding, allow me to work a few facts into this exchange.

First, we didn't purchase 100 aircraft to perform the OT&E. You obviously missed a vital point. The Washington Post article quoted reliability rates during the OT&E period. At that point we had precisely one small squadron of aircraft at Nellis AFB -- vastly fewer than 100 or even the final orders that brought the numbers up to 182.

Second, it wasn't until we established the reliability rates upward toward the 83% figure that the follow-on orders were funded, then built, then received.

Third, the mission available rate at 83% compares most favorably to the ongoing rates for the F-16 and F-15C's. Much of the technology of the F-22 promises availability rates better than those the F-15 achieved during its operational lifetime.

Fourth, when you claimed the F-22 should have stayed test until OT&E was complete reveals you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you theorize on how surgeons should operate on the table? OT&E is primarily intended to allow USAF maintenance troops to work with the contractor (Lockheed Martin in this case) to study the aircraft and create the initial cadre of active duty maintenance and operations experience. These people are then sent to the initial operational squadrons to be the instructors who teach the rest of the AF maintainers and operators to maintain and fly the jets! Do you really not understand it is impossible to do this with only two or three test bed aircraft? Again, we had one squadron at Nellis for the entire OT&E phase. Then, when complete, we ordered enough jets for squadrons at Langley AFB and Tyndall AFB. Eglin AFB got some to conduct weapons tests and evaluations. I hope you don't think we should not allocate jets to test weapons!

Final fact, and it takes operational experience to appreciate this point. Mission available rates includes programmed maintenance time. Take my Skyhawk for example. Right now it's sitting in its hangar available. But, in a week my A&P-IA will have to carry out the annual inspection. It will take about two to three days to complete it. During that time it is not available. Does that mean my Skyhawk is a lemon?

Hardly!

Logically, you program recurrent normal maintenance, such as engine inspections, 100 hour inspections, at a rate where the fleet experiences only a small amount of downtime by total percentage of airframes. When you start to achieve 83% availability, then you are at the maximum sustainable level.

Yes, you can increase that available rate over the short-term by forgoing those required inspections, but eventually you pay for that later. I certainly hope people here can appreciate that an 83% available rate is really excellent reliability.

The problem again, is that the Post quoted old data experienced during the OT&E phase. It was dishonest because by the point the article was published the USAF had achieved the 83% level!

Now that I've written this again, do I need to explain the point again?

We who are paid to do this stuff aren't idiots! We are able to apply lessons learned from the past and figure out strategies to field new aircraft in a manner orderly and effective. When I hear someone of your experience level saying we should have kept it as a 10-12 aircraft fleet in order to do all the OT&E, I have to sit amazed that you didn't do your homework before posting, sir! In fact, that was the approximate size of the Nellis OT&E squadron! I believe it had about 15 aircraft to be precise. Nellis also worked out the operational tactics while those aircraft at Eglin worked out how to drop all the myriad of ordinance it would carry.

That took about 20 aircraft total. You then fix the remaining issues that only a vigorous operational test phase can determine, train the initial cadre of maintainers and operators, and then order enough jets to equip operational squadrons at Tyndall and Langley. Problem is, 182 isn't enough to fulfill the duties of the present F-15 fleet. It takes 20 years to field a fighter jet today. What do we now do in the year 2030 when the F-15 is really obsolete and we don't have enough F-22's to perform the job in a future war? I'll give you a partial answer. Gates believes the F-35 will be the ticket. However, the F-35 is now being attacked for not meeting pie-in-the-sky objectives in its OT&E phase. These are the same tired arguments thrown out for every aircraft the USAF has developed, including the F-15 and F-16 whom some now believe should remain our aerial sheld through the year 2030! If we had listened to the neighsayers in 1973 and 1977, we'd be facing 2030 with F-4E's to defend America's skies!

Ken
 
there is a far more important reason we need the f-22 that no one has mentioned so far:

IT'S DARN COOL AND IT HAS THE CHEEZYFLIER SEAL OF APPROVAL!!!:applause::icon_lol::wavey:

F-22_Raptor.jpg
 
The conventional trained Russian/Chinase or any other that are that are trained like them. The numbers of Migs and Sukhois the F-22 would face I would say the F-22 lose every time but at heavy lost to Russian/Chinase ext..

Even mix in with other, F-16 or F-18 all one would have to do is get the USAF to mix in F-22 for the first week or so than Maintenance would ground the F-22 giving Russian/Chinase ext. the uper hand in air to air combat just by number again.

WWII tank combat Equation.
U.S and German tank training=Same.
U.S and German tanks=German better.
U.S and German tank numbers=U.S. More
Winner=US. tanks by same training and larger numbers but heavy lost to U.S.


F-86 vs Russian piloted Mig 15 combat Equation.
F-86 and Russian piloted Mig 15 aircrat training=F-86 by a bit.
F-86 and Russian piloted Mig 15 aircraft=Same.
F-86/ and Russian piloted Mig 15 aircraft numbers=Same.
Winner=Unknown. There is no way to tell what Russian piloted Mig 15 were shot town by F-86's. Both claim win.
U.S by number of ALL Mig 15's shot down. Russian by number of F-86's shot down by Russian piloted Mig 15's.

F-22 combat Equation.
Russian/Chinase and U.S aircrat training=Same.
Russian/Chinase and U.S aircraft=U.S better.
Russian/Chinase and U.S aircraft numbers=Russian/Chinase More
Winner=Russian/Chinase air by same training and larger numbers but heavy lost to Russian/Chinase.

There history for ya. An applyed to today. F-22 lose.


Ok,you have strayed into familiar ground.I was a tanker in the US Army so I know a bit about tanks.

The Germans had superior vehicles in the late Panzer MK 4 and MK 5 Panther.The Tiger 1 was also superior but mechanically unreliable,being rushed into combat.

The simple fact is that the Germans had lost air superiority by the end of the war accounting for tremendous losses to their armored forces and they had a hell of a time for the same reason with resupply.You can't run tanks without fuel and ammo.Also their production facilities were getting hammered and couldn't keep up with demand.There was a serious lack of raw materials and spare parts available.

The Sherman was simple and reliable and could be built in great numbers....but it was a death trap.The main gun was underpowered and they had poor armor so a solid hit ended up with the tank brewing up most of the time.

But we had plenty of expendable soldiers and they were expended at a great rate by the Sherman.We had better tanks,the M-26 was quite a beast for the day but wasn't deployed until the very end of the war.Would I have ridden into combat in a Sherman in WW 2? Not on your life.

We also had the production capacity that Germany could only dream of. If the Germans had been able to produce their tanks unfettered,and been able to keep the air,we would have been whipped.The loss of the armored advantage had more to do with the Army Air Force then anything else.:USA-flag:



sorry fellas,but the facts need to be presented.
 
Amen!

Those German Panzer divisions in reserve at Normandy weren't destroyed by Allied ground units, artillery or armoured. They were butchered by the tactical and strategic air attacks. The butchering the Wermacht and Waffen SS Panzer units took during Operation Cobra were so horrific that Allied ground units that road mostly unmolested past the carnage were actually frightened by the scenes they saw.

It is called asymetric warfare. It is where one side uses a weapon that has no equal by the enemy. For our side it has been airpower for a very long time. This morphisis started in World War II. Battleships were supplanted by the aircraft on aircraft carriers. It is easier to say battleships were supplanted by aircraft carriers, but it was the aircraft not the carrier!

Fixed fortifications were initially overcome by nascient tank operations by the British during World War I. However, by World War II another revolution had rendered armour highly effective, but not revolutionary. Airpower proved to be the master of armoured units.

It was the Il-2 Sturmovik that mastered the Panther and Tiger tanks and not the T-34 tanks. Omar Bradley took the concept of blitzkrieg that the Nazis pioneered, and used strategic airpower to add an entirely new element to it. It was the first time strategic bombers were used to wipe out entire divisions of enemy ground units. It worked! Yes, there was one tragic incident where one bomber formation released their bombs early and caused allied casualties. But, as a percentage of bombs dropped, it was a small number off target.

That this caused horrible casualties certified further the lethality of airpower. Not since the Korean War has US ground forces suffered a single attack by enemy airpower. The reason is that we have always since been able to establish and maintain air superiority. I fear we have become arrogant in thinking this a birthright rather than something that has to be paid for and earned!

The same Army generals myopically agreeing to play politics with the F-22 might be the ones before they pass away to see American soldiers suffering horrific casualties from enemy air attacks the likes of which haven't been seen since Korea.

To conclude, going back to World War II, had it not been for allied airpower, the Sherman tank at Normandy would have fared tragically worse than it suffered anyway. The allies had only two weapons truly effective against German armour units -- radio-controlled artillery fire and tactical airpower. Operation Cobra was a singular example of how massed German units far enough removed from allied ground units could be destroyed with strategic airpower.

Once PGM's were married to the equation, it became a whole new affair that thankfully no allied ground unit has had to yet face. We better pray that remains the case!

Ken
 
very good points. I'm glad we ordered the F-22s that we ordered. how hard is it to restart the assembly lines if we decided we want more?
certainly hope they work out any issues with the f-35 too.

but, dollar for dollar, considering our current conflicts, how can you sacrifice sending resources to the guys who are in contact right now? They want/need certain tools, perhaps more helicopters and IED hunter robots, not fighter jets. the USA already has the worlds largest defense budget. So unless Russia or China find ways to dramatically increase their defense budgets, I don't see how they can beat us. If they increase the flow of money to fighter jets, than some other aspect of their order of battle will suffer and we still dominate.
If you think that China is growing and will have more money to spend on "defense" in the future, I guess it comes down to making sure that we make sure that our economy remains stronger than theirs so we have the money to spend on defense. then you can get down to how you divy up that $$$ pie.
I guess, in a way it was our economy that allowed us to field the strike aircraft that beat the Germans in WWII.
 
Again, I have no significant problem with a decision clearly rendered for budget reasons. But, just have the guts as the politicians to man up and say, "We are not making any more because we need to save the money for other programs." Gates initially did that. I disagreed, but respected his position.

Then, he received some principled push back from some ACC generals who were rightly concerned about the future of US air superiority. Gates then engaged in a backstabbing and dishonest effort to salt the media with false reports of Raptor problems, using data from OT&E years prior.

If you think 182 is enough, then that's an honest opinion. But to try to trash the fighter isn't honorable when fraudulent and deliberately misleading data is sent to the media to create a smear campaign to silence critics. Then, Gates fired the AF Secretary and Chief of Staff (I had to remain quiet on that one being on active duty) but it stunk!

Again, Gates claimed it was over the nuclear issues. Serious issues -- very serious issues. But, it wasn't until the rancor over the F-22 cancellation developed that Gates chopped the ax down! The real reason is he wanted the criticisms silenced. The nuclear issues were a convenient excuse. Mosely was guilty of giving his boss an excuse to fire him. What got SECAF Wynne fired was when he bluntly told Gates he refused to fire Mosely over a smokescreen reason.

Gates then had to fire both.

Gates bullied his way to his budget decision on the F-22 and crushed all opposition. So, he owns this one -- it's all his! If it works, he's wise. If ten years or so from now it gets men killed then he's the goat. But he won't be the one dying on the battlefield!

Ken
 
If ten years or so from now it gets men killed then he's the goat. But he won't be the one dying on the battlefield!

Nope it'll be guys like me that will continue to get slotted, we need all the air support we can get, Might is Right after all it would seem... see in Afghanistan the British Army originally sent Lynx if i recall, no good they can't lift much and are a pain at high altitudes, so we sent the nook, it can do more and overall has a longer service lifetime, and high airframe life... you advance your technology to the edge of that knife blade, to do too little it dulls, do too much and it still dulls, the balance is always Politics/cash from taxpayers and what is actually needed... just my 2p worth but not pointing a finger at the eastern or western bloc...
 
In reading the posts above, both for and against the F-22, I can't help but wonder. If the F-22 was a failure as claimed by its opponents, why did Russia spend ten years and untold Rubles to develope its version of the F-22?
 
In reading the posts above, both for and against the F-22, I can't help but wonder. If the F-22 was a failure as claimed by its opponents, why did Russia spend ten years and untold Rubles to develope its version of the F-22?

as a direct competitor i suppose, Russia saw the F-22 emerge, and probably considered it a threat, so Russia developed the SU/T-50 as an answer to that threat, remember the weapons world is always leapfrog, 1 person trying to outdo another... again just my 2p worth :salute:
 
Back
Top