Flight AI and Marksmanship AI-- same or different?

L

LeBlaque

Guest
Been following some different threads related to AI behaviors, particularly as it relates to the lastest patch. It appears to me there is a noticable improvement. I do, however, agree with some posters that the AI aircraft appear to be particularly deadly with their guns and think this can be a bit problematic as they begin firing (though with less accuracy) at an alleged 400 yards or so. This is just my perception on their marksmenship, doesn't make it fact....

This did lead me to one question I thought I would pose: does the enemy AI setting have INDEPENDENT characteristics for both flying and marksmanship? Meaning, can I run into an acrobatic flyer that cannot hit the broad side of a barn or, conversely, can I run into a below average flyer that has sniper-like aiming characteristics (if he could level his plane). Although these skills aren't mutually exclusive, I suspect that there could be a notable difference in the skill sets among many flyers just as I'm sure there are among us.

Bottom line, is this something that is programmed into the AI or is a possible feature in the future?

Regards,
LeBlaque
 
LeBlaque said:
Been following some different threads related to AI behaviors, particularly as it relates to the lastest patch. It appears to me there is a noticable improvement. I do, however, agree with some posters that the AI aircraft appear to be particularly deadly with their guns and think this can be a bit problematic as they begin firing (though with less accuracy) at an alleged 400 yards or so. This is just my perception on their marksmenship, doesn't make it fact....

This did lead me to one question I thought I would pose: does the enemy AI setting have INDEPENDENT characteristics for both flying and marksmanship? Meaning, can I run into an acrobatic flyer that cannot hit the broad side of a barn or, conversely, can I run into a below average flyer that has sniper-like aiming characteristics (if he could level his plane). Although these skills aren't mutually exclusive, I suspect that there could be a notable difference in the skill sets among many flyers just as I'm sure there are among us.

Bottom line, is this something that is programmed into the AI or is a possible feature in the future?

Regards,
LeBlaque
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I posted the same question related to enemy AI accuracy and lethality in campaign mode from a distance compared to the damage I was able to inflict even on their tail. And I don't think it's a matter of perception either. In my experience it hasn't mattered whether the AI is German or one of the allies on your six - you're still going to get waxed in most cases from a distance that you can't replicate.
 
With care I can hit from far away, and so can the AI within reason -BUT it wastes a lot of ammo.
Aces are generally deadly.. and you need to move more, avoid more ;)

No the skill is linked. Better flier better shot.

Not much point in having an Ace who can't hit a barn door.

Maybe in the future we can add more AI variants if things go well, or more ways to randomise the distance, we do not want to stop long range totally, even MvR used it to slow escaping craft down. When you are being shot at even from range you dodge around and thus slow down. Bullets even from a few 100 yards can still pop a hole in your head.
 
I've been forced down by both a generic-looking Alb and one of MvR's wingmen, survived both. Hit countless times on other occasions and managed to get kills afterwards and make it back home. Maybe I've just been extremely lucky or the AI aren't that deadly? I would say I seem to manage to avoid the worst of a burst by turning out of the way the second I hear the gunfire/hits. Maybe you chaps are staying around too long on the tail of your intended victim (target-fixation)?

Personally I think it's all spot on.
 
Actually looking into it they start firing within about 500 feet, and usually this is under 450, so under 150 yards.. not bad at all.
50 would be ideal but we can't just stop all firing over 50 yards that would be nuts and very dull... but as always we'll look into it again spent many hours testing and the values we had seem fine to us.
 
Polovski said:
With care I can hit from far away, and so can the AI within reason -BUT it wastes a lot of ammo.
Aces are generally deadly.. and you need to move more, avoid more ;)

No the skill is linked. Better flier better shot.

Not much point in having an Ace who can't hit a barn door.

Maybe in the future we can add more AI variants if things go well, or more ways to randomise the distance, we do not want to stop long range totally, even MvR used it to slow escaping craft down. When you are being shot at even from range you dodge around and thus slow down. Bullets even from a few 100 yards can still pop a hole in your head.
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This being the case, then virtually every enemy AI I've encountered in campaign mode is an ace - regardless of national flag.

While I appreciate the purist point of view as relates to OFF's realism (read difficulty), there are those of us who would want to enjoy the great WWI sim that OFF is but at a less demanding level given the limitations of a computer monitor display among other reasons.

Not everyone can afford TIR which is a huge asset from what I've seen for situational awareness during air combat. Nor are 50 and older folks on equall ground with the same eye-hand coordination/response abilities of those much younger - and in terms of realism why there were no old fighter pilots.

All this said, enemy AI difficulty is selectable in QC. So, make it available in campaign mode as well. This way the purists can fly the sim accordingly yet allow those of us who don't subscribe to that level of realism to enjoy the sim in their way.
 
Polovski said:
Actually looking into it they start firing within about 500 feet, and usually this is under 450, so under 150 yards.. not bad at all.
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According to the post-mission replay, when Allmenroder shot me down, he was 1400-1500 feet away. I was in a tight right turn and he was shooting down at about a 45^ angle from above and behind. I'd consider this a fairly difficult shot. He was so far away that my FE2's rear gun hadn't even started tracking him yet. But my plane disintegrated and caught fire within a second of the 1st hits, so I don't think he wasted many bullets.

I'm not complaining--I like dangerous aces. I'm just saying that in my limited experience with them so far, they're pretty deadly at very long range. Perhaps moreso than you think.
 
Siggi said:
I've been forced down by both a generic-looking Alb and one of MvR's wingmen, survived both. Hit countless times on other occasions and managed to get kills afterwards and make it back home. Maybe I've just been extremely lucky or the AI aren't that deadly? I would say I seem to manage to avoid the worst of a burst by turning out of the way the second I hear the gunfire/hits. Maybe you chaps are staying around too long on the tail of your intended victim (target-fixation)?

Personally I think it's all spot on.
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Not me. I just continue to fly straight and level ... :sleep: Of course I immediately try to evade! But even turning and diving the shots continue to be dead on with no AI to be seen with a quick snap view to the rear.
 
Polovski said:
With care I can hit from far away, and so can the AI within reason -BUT it wastes a lot of ammo.


No the skill is linked. Better flier better shot.

Not much point in having an Ace who can't hit a barn door.
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Two points:
1. Having the skill linked is fine, but I just wanted to point out that even by his own admission, Manny von R was not a great pilot. He did seem to be a pretty decent shot, however. I'm just sayin, s'all :)

2. Can the AI run out of ammo? That would help my strategizing!

RR
 
Possibly an issue with the mission replay Bullethead or we need to tone it down somehow but as I said, we'll look into it...

Yes rick,

1. Completely understood, and as I said, maybe we can add more variety etc in the future.

2. I believe so yes they run out of other ordinance.
 
I was just reading Camel Aces by Osprey and one or two of them claimed to have shot down planes from over 1000 yards.
 
Polovski said:
Actually looking into it they start firing within about 500 feet, and usually this is under 450, so under 150 yards.. not bad at all.
50 would be ideal but we can't just stop all firing over 50 yards that would be nuts and very dull... but as always we'll look into it again spent many hours testing and the values we had seem fine to us.
Click to expand...

So Pol when I pop on labels and I see a number like 650, that's in feet not yards? If it's in feet then I think the range at which the AI start firing is not to bad, still a little long in my opinion but not outta the box.
Accuracy and deadliness of the rounds, that's a whole other story. The AI can put you OOC with one good burst, in fact I've had one burst from the AI leave my plane completely uncontrolable, while we have to hit them with tons of ammo to achieve the same effect. I'm right about 25-30% accuracy and from what I've seen research has shown that the average accuracy during WWII was between 3-4%. I'm guessing it was worse rather then better in WWI. Now obviously we don't want it to easy but I think the deadliness of the players guns could be upped a tad.

Ok I've had my whine for the day, gotta go get some cheese and crackers.:ernae:

Scott
 
ftgc said:
I think the deadliness of the players guns could be upped a tad.
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Well then, it is easy enough to fix...just go to the workshop settings and increase your weapon effectiveness settings from normal to strong or even strongest. See, they thought of everything :applause:
 
77Scout said:
Well then, it is easy enough to fix...just go to the workshop settings and increase your weapon effectiveness settings from normal to strong or even strongest. See, they thought of everything :applause:
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Not until I see the same QC AI selectable difficulty in campaign mode that also changes distance accuracy proportionally. Increased weapon effectiveness means squat if it's only out to 300 feet while the enemy AI is more than 300 in every situation and pilot skill level..
 
ftgc said:
So Pol when I pop on labels and I see a number like 650, that's in feet not yards? If it's in feet then I think the range at which the AI start firing is not to bad, still a little long in my opinion but not outta the box.
Accuracy and deadliness of the rounds, that's a whole other story. The AI can put you OOC with one good burst, in fact I've had one burst from the AI leave my plane completely uncontrolable, while we have to hit them with tons of ammo to achieve the same effect. I'm right about 25-30% accuracy and from what I've seen research has shown that the average accuracy during WWII was between 3-4%. I'm guessing it was worse rather then better in WWI. Now obviously we don't want it to easy but I think the deadliness of the players guns could be upped a tad.

Ok I've had my whine for the day, gotta go get some cheese and crackers.:ernae:

Scott
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Are you talking about British or French planes or German planes? After flying Nieuports almost exclusively since the game came out and being used to using all my ammo on one plane, I switched to an Albatross D1 today and ran across a couple of N11's. Even though they were more maneuverable than me, they had to trade altitude to do this and eventually they had to straighten out to avoid hitting the ground. At this point, one long burst from me and they were basically done for. It's amazing how much ammo spandaus can spit out in a short burst. The few times they hit me did nothing to the airworthiness of my plane. If you haven't tried the German planes yet, give it a go and see if it helps!

RR
 
ftgc said:
So Pol when I pop on labels and I see a number like 650, that's in feet not yards?
Click to expand...
I beleive thats in feet yes...but a confirmation would be nice.
 
I must say that in one on one this unreal accuracy of the AI can be "accommodated", but as soon as you are in a situation with three or more enemy in the furball you find one will hit you with a couple of bullets from God knows where ( not behind necessarily ) and that is you in an uncontrollable plane . End of story.
The balance of bullets-to-damage is much too out of realism, on both sides, IMHO.

But it's still the best sim out there
 
I'm not sure that the majority of real pilots would have continued fighting once their plane had taken a good burst. Fear of structural damage, or a leaking tank just waiting to ignite, would have sent most directly home or even to the nearest friendly field. That's normal natural human fear.

In the sim we don't have that fear, even not when we have a pilot with many real-time hours. So having one's plane crippled, to some degree or other, by a single good burst does simulate that fear and need to get away quite well, in my opinion.
 
I do leave the fight, as soon as my bird does not respond to my commands like it did before, my engine makes that special sound, or I di spent my ordonance. I would do in reallife (maybe earlier:whistle:), so I do it here.

Reminds me of a sentence ".......come back and fight the other day, when you`re able to do so."
 
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