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Flight Sim World: Closure Announcement

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I think all those that say LM does not need the revenue from simmers are missing the point as to why LM makes P3D available to the public in the first place, they need the community of third party developers creating add-ons aircraft, scenery, weather, etc to flush out there simulators, those third party developers would not be so eager to do that if they only place they can see there add-ons in on an official lockheed simulator. If the community migrates away from the FSX/P3D environment to something else they are in big trouble because now they have to do all those extra pieces themselves.

LM does have a marketing problem in that 'not for entertainment purposes' clause what will cause many ppl to not buy it (as you can tell from some of the comments in this thread). The end of FSW may give them an opportunity to renegotiate their contract with microsoft and or DTG so they can drop that pesky clause, relabel 'Academic' to 'Personal' and secure the future of there franchise.
 
I would also like to clarify my earlier post about the long silence and very careful answers given by DTG team members at FSCon. I hope no one took it as coloring Stephen and Aimee's characters, but rather focusing on the tight situation they were in, knowing that if they said everything the project would have died right there and then, yet unable to make statements that would have put everyone at ease without getting nailed by the senior management.
 
I didn't realize that FSW allowed freeware or development outside their store environment. (Probably because I never saw any FSW freeware.) I've bought a stupid amount of payware add-on products for just about every sim out there, but it's taking cool freeware planes for test flights that keeps me engaged. I own FSW, but only have about four hours in it right now due to limited available content and no VR support.

Licensing aside, LM as a business will never prioritize a consumer product. It's outside their core business, and when they're making $109 million-plus on each F-35, simulation software is going to remain a niche no matter how successful their platform becomes.

What I think would be cool is if someone bought the consumer license DTG holds and does a deal with LM to a consumer-focused sim based on P3D. For that licensee, the consumer market would be a primary focus, and LM and the licensee would both benefit. But I'm just brainstorming here -- don't know of anyone who would do that.

And despite my history with flight sims -- started on FS2 on the Commodore 64, was CGW's flight sim columnist in the 90s, etc -- I'd have to think twice about entering a market where the potential customers can react with the hostility and emotion that DTG saw.
 
Regarding the P3D licensing, the line between "Entertainment" & "Learning" purposes is very fine. You're not required to be a licensed pilot nor actually plan to become a pilot to purchase the Professional license option. If you're using the program for your own purposes (training/learning), you're good to go, no one is going to question the fine details that usage. LM is very aware that there has been a cross-over segment of users from this side of the fence into a more true and focused definition of Flight Simulation vs a Gaming aspect of the overall platform. Many of the users of FSX and P3D are individuals who come from some form of Aviation background or are people who are interested in learning more about the various and vast aspects of Aviation. That fits well within the end user scope of P3D far away from violating it's intended use. LM is also very aware that the developers from this circle are absolutely vital to the long term success of their platform and drawing in more users which will ultimately grow the platform. Let us be honest here, most people who're looking for a arcade flight simulation aren't going to spend the serious money for P3D and it's addons. This realm of ours hasn't been am entertainment game now for a number of years. It's become a very effective learning tool.
 
I didn't realize that FSW allowed freeware or development outside their store environment. (Probably because I never saw any FSW freeware.) I've bought a stupid amount of payware add-on products for just about every sim out there, but it's taking cool freeware planes for test flights that keeps me engaged. I own FSW, but only have about four hours in it right now due to limited available content and no VR support.

Licensing aside, LM as a business will never prioritize a consumer product. It's outside their core business, and when they're making $109 million-plus on each F-35, simulation software is going to remain a niche no matter how successful their platform becomes.

What I think would be cool is if someone bought the consumer license DTG holds and does a deal with LM to a consumer-focused sim based on P3D. For that licensee, the consumer market would be a primary focus, and LM and the licensee would both benefit. But I'm just brainstorming here -- don't know of anyone who would do that.

And despite my history with flight sims -- started on FS2 on the Commodore 64, was CGW's flight sim columnist in the 90s, etc -- I'd have to think twice about entering a market where the potential customers can react with the hostility and emotion that DTG saw.


Yes, but what would be the point?

DTG have just aptly demonstrated that the core ESP really, quite honestly, has no future. LM have it stitched up - whatever you want to call the license levels.

Come on chaps - let us not descend into some Avsim to'oing and thro'ing; that's why we're in the Out House; we don't buy into that sh1t.

Peace.
 
Directly from LM's page on the "professional" licensing option :

"The license is available to those that are training, instructing, simulating, or learning."

It's a pretty hard sell to argue that anyone using a sim of this caliber isn't "learning", even in spite of themselves. Thus, I don't understand the argument that personal users are somehow running afoul of their EULA?

... Says the guy still on FSX, so what do I know? ;-) (It does seem pretty clear though...)
 
True LM wouldn't make a consumer product a priority, but if they can make more revenue from work they have already done, simply by negotiating a new license, you can bet that they would go for expanding it to the "entertainment" market. It's all about the $$$ and the second it becomes a revenue burden they can sell it off or simply drop it from their licensing options.


I didn't realize that FSW allowed freeware or development outside their store environment. (Probably because I never saw any FSW freeware.) I've bought a stupid amount of payware add-on products for just about every sim out there, but it's taking cool freeware planes for test flights that keeps me engaged. I own FSW, but only have about four hours in it right now due to limited available content and no VR support.

Licensing aside, LM as a business will never prioritize a consumer product. It's outside their core business, and when they're making $109 million-plus on each F-35, simulation software is going to remain a niche no matter how successful their platform becomes.

What I think would be cool is if someone bought the consumer license DTG holds and does a deal with LM to a consumer-focused sim based on P3D. For that licensee, the consumer market would be a primary focus, and LM and the licensee would both benefit. But I'm just brainstorming here -- don't know of anyone who would do that.

And despite my history with flight sims -- started on FS2 on the Commodore 64, was CGW's flight sim columnist in the 90s, etc -- I'd have to think twice about entering a market where the potential customers can react with the hostility and emotion that DTG saw.
 
I wouldn't be at all surprised if there wasn't a business deal somewhere at the back of all this. I'm not talking about lack of revenue making the suits at DTG pull the plug on the unsuspecting FSW dev team. More that there is a deal on the table somewhere regarding said recreational license. Say, for pure speculative example, that LM wanted to get hold of FSW features they didn't have, Truesky, PBR, updated airport data, career mode, etc. I wouldn't be surprised. Money talks. LM already has a license for ESP development, all I'm saying.

I only hope we as the community and the FSW dev team come out as winners in the end.
 
Who knows what LM will do... My gut feeling is that I believe it's doubtful they will get the entertainment option. Their revenue stream is alternative. They needed to fill a training gap and didn't want to create it from scratch. The USAF had been Fielding "off the shelf" Solution proposals for a while now and I believe this fits right into that low risk low cost solution, where you don't have too start from scratch to build a tool that will help USAF, it's partners LM, and any number of civilian training needs via a high Fidelity simulation platform. Plus, let's be honest here, they know as well as the rest of us that it's just Symantecs, they offer something on par to the entertainment package already. There's no need to go that route. This let's then be as flexible as possible and do basically whatever they want with zero expectation of getting sales based on increasing consumer demand. If you think about it for a second it's actually FAR and AWAY better for us as users that it remains as is. Because the developers are basically the original FSX guys. They're getting to make the sim what they wanted FSX to be and more. Motivation is not based on needing to fill a quota. I'm not native enough to know they don't also have internal business goals and objectives. However there are likely Enterprise in nature.

I hope they do have something...I would love for them to incorporate TrueSky and PBR. However P3D had already Incorporated new terrain modeling with bumps and specukar mapping. As well as heat mapping.
 
I suspect that DTG is up to something. They probably had targets they needed to meet to satisfy the contract with MS in terms of selling/developing for a certain period of time and once satisfied, they were done.

While the revenue may not compare to a F-35, it would not be insignificant to the manager of the team that runs the simulation division. According to SteamSpy FSX-SE has sold 1,000,000-2,000,000 users and FSW has 50,000 to 100,000 users. So if they could match the low end of FSX-SE did and sold copies for the same prices as the academic version your talking about $60m, thats not insignificant.
 
I actually find this an interesting discussion. On one level some contributors have put a 'face' or that little bit of detail about product development and the ebbs and flows of this sector of the computer software industry, flight simulation and/or generically what is called gaming. Gaming as we know is a very active and profitable business but very faddish and fickle. I have followed both sides over the years ever since I first started seriously learning about and using computers as they first began and have now become. Many of us share similar journeys. Shows that a lot of us are also getting older.

Here is some more points that I think are worth considering as to why DTG failed. I am not really interested in the personalities or the obscure chicanery of licensing rights etc of DTG or LM or commenting about it.

I do not develop or make flight simulator products but I have the highest regard for those that do and my only observation is this as far as flight simulation is concerned it morphed from a originally being a way or the means to solve and develop the problem of 3-dimensional pixel management and graphics display on a 2 dimensional television screen. The area of flight was an obviously clever means of doing this because flight takes place in a 3 dimensional realm with lots of multiple vector equations to be solved. The second major issue and they ran side by side was graphical display moving from monochrome to colour then from code line interface to GUI style interfaces. As we all know at the heart of this was the critical issue of operating systems (O/S) for actually managing what the hardware did in response to what the program was coded to do. There was substantial effort and money put into O/S development by a lot of companies and for a while a multiplicity of systems (there still are but that is another story) but to make it work you needed unit sales, the right O/S the right equipment (micro-computers) and some savy marketing and voila Microsoft. MS used flight simulation as a computing problem solving tool and as a marketing tool. The same way they put those little games like solitaire etc as part of the O/S bundle. While sales of all the above held up they achieved a level of market dominance which made MSFS the dominant sim (There were quite a few others about in the late 80's and 90's but they were gaming orientated. As the market grew it also started to mature until it was overtaken by new technology the microcomputer with a flat screen and telephone with digital data connections and www connectivity the size of bar of chocolate or smaller, voila the I-Phone and or Android. That has been a major game changer for lots of folks it brought an end or seriously damaged a number of businesses who had invested heavily into older style telephones, tower computer systems etc. HP, Nokia, Motorola are good examples. MS conquered the business market via Windows and then Networked Windows systems and also were savvy enough to make them work with via communication protocols to heavy hitting systems that required different software and O/S such as produced by IBM and Sun etc. If you run a bank or similar high volume transaction business MS Windows won't do the heavy lifting it is just a pretty interface. Apple was always a niche player until they came up with the IPhone but they had the graphical entertainment industry sector cornered and it was large enough for them to build on those Apple systems and O/S. All I am trying to do is put a perspective on where we are and suggest that DTG is not the first to hit the wall in this sort of computing and electronic environment.

Perhaps more specifically lets us look at Flight Simulation. I am a retired military-civilian pilot, a QFI, a C&T captain, low level, aerobatics etc. I have done a lot of operational flying over my life but I was also a training specialist a teacher if you like. I liked it and still do and that is why I was asked to come out of retirement and do some more for a major international aerospace company that does hardware, software and other stuff for the military all over the world. I have been involved in FS from day one, I could see the potential once the hardware and software progressed and caught up. For example early full motion simulators were hideously complex mechanical electrical simulators but the computing power behind them was actually less than any desktop computer I had at home or the office. The role of a FS styled system for flight training and education was obvious the tools or the equipment though seriously lagged behind what was needed. MSFS has actually been used quite extensively but only as training aid or if you like a procedural tool and reasons were simple, immersion and fidelity. You could use it as a teaching tool but not for serious flight training, that has/had to be done in an aeroplane or for the big stuff in a full motion simulator. That is why LM have P3D not for consumers but for flight training, military and civilian and let us not of course forget the rise of UAV's driven by somebody at a PC nowhere near the UAV itself.

For me MSFS has been a hobby, a past time and very enjoyable but it's standout characteristics were the passion and skills of thousands of like minded people all over the world, taking the time to do aircraft designs, painting, scenery etc. That community is a very rich and valuable resource and lots of people have been good enough to spin it into a business others have preferred to remain committed amateurs. DTG simply failed to see the bigger picture and I think had a gamer-development mentality to the product they had and failed to understand the passion and commitment of people like all of us at SOH and elsewhere who enjoy it, appreciate the hard work of those doing it because they have a passion for aviation and its history in all its facets.

Sure FS will continue and so will some competition but the market is now in what economists call a tertiary phase, the days of exponential growth are over. In this environment, reliability and meeting specific customer demands will keep you afloat, albeit there will be some products that bomb occasionally but that is the way it is. Trying to herd your customers into a particular shute wont do it for you. after all why would I get locked into a license buy system that does not let me fiddle and modify things to either improve them or add value to them? More importantly -Why would I want to support a business that effectively locks out the wonderful work and obvious talent as demonstrated by work of you folk here at SOH? I am not buying that, what we have is too precious. And I would not buy a product that does not do anything better than what I have on the promise that it might. Simple.
 
I actually find this an interesting discussion. On one level some contributors have put a 'face' or that little bit of detail about product development and the ebbs and flows of this sector of the computer software industry, flight simulation and/or generically what is called gaming. Gaming as we know is a very active and profitable business but very faddish and fickle. I have followed both sides over the years ever since I first started seriously learning about and using computers as they first began and have now become. Many of us share similar journeys. Shows that a lot of us are also getting older.

Here is some more points that I think are worth considering as to why DTG failed. I am not really interested in the personalities or the obscure chicanery of licensing rights etc of DTG or LM or commenting about it.

I do not develop or make flight simulator products but I have the highest regard for those that do and my only observation is this as far as flight simulation is concerned it morphed from a originally being a way or the means to solve and develop the problem of 3-dimensional pixel management and graphics display on a 2 dimensional television screen. The area of flight was an obviously clever means of doing this because flight takes place in a 3 dimensional realm with lots of multiple vector equations to be solved. The second major issue and they ran side by side was graphical display moving from monochrome to colour then from code line interface to GUI style interfaces. As we all know at the heart of this was the critical issue of operating systems (O/S) for actually managing what the hardware did in response to what the program was coded to do. There was substantial effort and money put into O/S development by a lot of companies and for a while a multiplicity of systems (there still are but that is another story) but to make it work you needed unit sales, the right O/S the right equipment (micro-computers) and some savy marketing and voila Microsoft. MS used flight simulation as a computing problem solving tool and as a marketing tool. The same way they put those little games like solitaire etc as part of the O/S bundle. While sales of all the above held up they achieved a level of market dominance which made MSFS the dominant sim (There were quite a few others about in the late 80's and 90's but they were gaming orientated. As the market grew it also started to mature until it was overtaken by new technology the microcomputer with a flat screen and telephone with digital data connections and www connectivity the size of bar of chocolate or smaller, voila the I-Phone and or Android. That has been a major game changer for lots of folks it brought an end or seriously damaged a number of businesses who had invested heavily into older style telephones, tower computer systems etc. HP, Nokia, Motorola are good examples. MS conquered the business market via Windows and then Networked Windows systems and also were savvy enough to make them work with via communication protocols to heavy hitting systems that required different software and O/S such as produced by IBM and Sun etc. If you run a bank or similar high volume transaction business MS Windows won't do the heavy lifting it is just a pretty interface. Apple was always a niche player until they came up with the IPhone but they had the graphical entertainment industry sector cornered and it was large enough for them to build on those Apple systems and O/S. All I am trying to do is put a perspective on where we are and suggest that DTG is not the first to hit the wall in this sort of computing and electronic environment.

Perhaps more specifically lets us look at Flight Simulation. I am a retired military-civilian pilot, a QFI, a C&T captain, low level, aerobatics etc. I have done a lot of operational flying over my life but I was also a training specialist a teacher if you like. I liked it and still do and that is why I was asked to come out of retirement and do some more for a major international aerospace company that does hardware, software and other stuff for the military all over the world. I have been involved in FS from day one, I could see the potential once the hardware and software progressed and caught up. For example early full motion simulators were hideously complex mechanical electrical simulators but the computing power behind them was actually less than any desktop computer I had at home or the office. The role of a FS styled system for flight training and education was obvious the tools or the equipment though seriously lagged behind what was needed. MSFS has actually been used quite extensively but only as training aid or if you like a procedural tool and reasons were simple, immersion and fidelity. You could use it as a teaching tool but not for serious flight training, that has/had to be done in an aeroplane or for the big stuff in a full motion simulator. That is why LM have P3D not for consumers but for flight training, military and civilian and let us not of course forget the rise of UAV's driven by somebody at a PC nowhere near the UAV itself.

For me MSFS has been a hobby, a past time and very enjoyable but it's standout characteristics were the passion and skills of thousands of like minded people all over the world, taking the time to do aircraft designs, painting, scenery etc. That community is a very rich and valuable resource and lots of people have been good enough to spin it into a business others have preferred to remain committed amateurs. DTG simply failed to see the bigger picture and I think had a gamer-development mentality to the product they had and failed to understand the passion and commitment of people like all of us at SOH and elsewhere who enjoy it, appreciate the hard work of those doing it because they have a passion for aviation and its history in all its facets.

Sure FS will continue and so will some competition but the market is now in what economists call a tertiary phase, the days of exponential growth are over. In this environment, reliability and meeting specific customer demands will keep you afloat, albeit there will be some products that bomb occasionally but that is the way it is. Trying to herd your customers into a particular shute wont do it for you. after all why would I get locked into a license buy system that does not let me fiddle and modify things to either improve them or add value to them? More importantly -Why would I want to support a business that effectively locks out the wonderful work and obvious talent as demonstrated by work of you folk here at SOH? I am not buying that, what we have is too precious. And I would not buy a product that does not do anything better than what I have on the promise that it might. Simple.

Where's the flippin "Like" button!!!????
 
Trying to herd your customers into a particular shute wont do it for you. after all why would I get locked into a license buy system that does not let me fiddle and modify things to either improve them or add value to them? More importantly -Why would I want to support a business that effectively locks out the wonderful work and obvious talent as demonstrated by work of you folk here at SOH? I am not buying that, what we have is too precious. And I would not buy a product that does not do anything better than what I have on the promise that it might. Simple.

this is the perfect summation - MSFSX/Aces actually got almost everything right...considering the age of the software and the scope of their project as they envisioned it. But the key to this genre more than any other is the open participation and contributions of the community. the community has enhanced everything in the sim from scenery, to weather, to aircraft..everything inside the box was taken from placeholder to first rate, indispensable component by the community of free and payware developers / fans of this simulator. In the case of FSX and now P3D it is the open ended community that have made FSX - P3D what they are today. There is NO OTHER WAY to do this folks. If anyone is thinking of developing a new flight simulator learn this lesson and be successful - or don't - and fold in six months or less.
Let the flight simming community participate with as little restriction or interference as possible. Passion drives this thing - Passion and talent. Thanks to ACES for really creating an almost perfect skeleton of what is now and still the best flight sim money can buy, and thanks to all who develop addons for FSX P3D - you have fleshed it out and made it fly
 
Quite right.. A tip of the hat to Aces for giving us the basic sim engine onto which the developers has built on.
Have a quick look at FlightGear... this has been totally developed by the community & is actually quite good. (& free)
 
They just finished up two sales back to back.
The results may have just confirmed what they had already decided.

Not a lot of DLC for it at this point anyway.
:ernaehrung004:

Was talking more about a "5$/€, grab it while it's still here" sale, not a "-33%" one.
 
I see Chevrolet are closing their doors. So all their existing stock should be free or in a flash $5 sale. Yeah, that makes sense.:engel016:
 
Its not like there is a warehouse of CD's to be cleared out. It's a clump of ones and zeros on a server.
Make a sale, send a copy. The available quantity doesn't change one byte.

All of a sudden folks who didn't support it before want to get a copy of everything on the cheap. Too little too late folks.

Instead of hoping to gain from this you should be thinking about all the employees who probably came
to a weekly company status meeting and learned that their source of income was shutting down in 30 days.
 
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