Flying the Eindecker

F

ftgc

Guest
Like most of you that have tried the Eindecker I initally found it to be unflyable. As soon as you got it into a bank of more than about 30 degrees it would side slip it's way right into the ground. No amount of rudder or stick would pull it out of it's bank. Having a passion for the early kites I was determained to figure out how to fly it or at least determine what was wrong so perhaps the devs could fix it. Well I think I've done both.
First the problem. Believe it or not what is causing the problem is compressability. Now yes I know compressibility was not an issue in WWI we'll get back to that. Most of you have experianced compressibility (or at least the onset of it) in OFF, when in a high speed dive and you try to pull out and the airplane very slowly pulls the nose up even with the stick full back. The same thing is happening with the Eindecker except it's affecting the ability of the stick to warp the wings and level the aircraft. Contributing to this problem is the fact that most aircraft in OFF build speed way to quickly in a dive. The drag on the aircraft of the this era was tremendous. All the struts, flying wires, fixed landing gear, multiple wings, undercamber airfoils, big radial engines and large squarish radiators all contributed to huge amounts of drag. The Sopwith Tripe is the worst example of this in my experiance. A little nose down and it will accelerate from 90 mph to 140 mph in the blink of an eye and start to shake itself apart shortly thereafter.
OK so how does this help solve the problem with flying the Eindecker. Well since we know what causes the problem we can fly so as not to get into the part of the envelope that causes the Eindecker to lock up. So we are up in out EIII and we see a N.11 below us about 9:00 O'clock going the opposite direction. Normally we would roll left and stand her on one wing kick left rudder to swing the nose down and dive after. When we got our nose down on the 6 of the N.11 we'd roll level and make our firing pass. With the EIII we pull nose high, chop throttle roll up on one wing and kick hard left rudder. We have to keep the speed below the point where the roll capability is lost. Pulling nose high helps kill speed before we nose over additionally, kicking and holding the rudder over until you have your nose pointed where you want helps, the drag helps keep speed down and gets your nose pointed in the right direction quicker. If your advesary is well below you, you may have to come down in a spiral to prevent overspeeding.
The key is to not let your nose drop to much and let speed build up while sharply banked. If you do immediatly chop throttle apply top rudder and pull the nose up to kill speed. That should allow you to roll level and try again. Be extremely careful down low, make one mistake and you'll auger in because you don't have the alltitude to recover.
I've tried this in several flights in QC and have managed to win 2v1s verses N.11s set on ace.
This may not be compressibility exactly, it may just be the program trying to simulate the increased load on control surfaces as speed increases (which was a factor even in WWI). However it's overmodeled and I'm sure it stems from the FM being modified WW2 flight models. That combined with the lack of drag being modeled for the WWI aircraft (again probably left over from the more aerodynamic WW2 planes) is what seems to be causing the problem.

Hope this helps,
Scott
 
There's an excellent program by Gerry Beckworth I believe called AirWrench. It can be used for FS2004, FSX(?) and OFF as well I would guess. You can d/l it from his site. With it you can pretty much do anything to the FM's..adjust to preference, historical performance (as you "determine" it to be) etc.

I am tempted to tinker myself, but after years of RB FM research and building...I like a life :icon_lol:

Regards,
Royce
 
Not having flown the E.III in Between Heaven and Hell yet I (naturally) haven't experienced this.

However the spiral dive Scott mentioned triggered a memory. I dug out my copy of "An Aviator's Handbook", a diary written by Oswald Boelcke. In it he mentions certain characteristics of flying the Eindecker, one of which was that controls would 'harden' in long dives ie dropping altitude of more than 500m at any one time. He mentions that he discovered this by mistake in one of his first flights and it scared him silly! :)

He found that if he had to make a long dive to approach an enemy he would spiral down rather than plunge headlong. Interestingly he also mentions that the Eindecker was strong enough to swoop almost vertically in short dives and the elevator control was so responsive that it would be able to respond and pull him out of the dive very quickly.

He rated the Eindecker E.III was better than the Nieuport 11 in climb and dive characteristics but very poor in roll and turn.
 
Hello Pips, and all,

finally someone else mentioning this! This is exactly what i read ! I always wondered why the E.III is modelled that sluggish in the simulators, because according to time witnesses it was a very nimble and nervous plane (due to the rudder without fin), needing control all the time, only hard to roll (due to the wing-warping mechanism), and a bit slow rising to higher altitudes above 800 meters (high drag rotary, little power, wing profiles too thin, and wings mounted with a high angle) - but slow only compared to later planes of the war. There were not so much Eindeckers still flying in 1917 .. and compared to the Morane Parasols and Farmans of 1915 to 16 it was a fast fighter.

There is a film, i did not find it again, where Anthony Fokker flys the Eindecker, rising fairly quick to, say, 200 meters in the film, he then kicks full rudder and even flies sideways without losing too much altitude - after that he does a tight looping with it .. if anyone finds this film, or knows where to get it - please ...
Applying full rudder on the ground, and increasing the engine's revolution it would almost turn on the spot, if not really controllable. I am sure one would be surprised how nimble some of the planes were, if one was up to really fly them nowadays.

In OFF the Eindecker is the oldest plane of all, and there is not yet a foe of its early time modelled. Apart from the Morane Bullet the Fokker E-type (lol for all car enthusiasts) was the first fighter in the war. In OFF it seems to have some problems, and maybe the team should have a look at its flight model sooner or later.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish
 
Catfish_
>> There is a film, i did not find it again, where Anthony Fokker flys the Eindecker..<<

I saw that same film clip about four, five years ago. I recall having the same thoughts as you regarding it's climbing and "agility". I think it was on the History Channel here in the US.

Royce
 
All good info...thanks guys.

When our standard flying maneuvers (like a hard diving bank) don't work as we expect, some of us (me included) tend to jump to the conclusion that the flight model is screwy, without thinking that the real plane may have actually been this tough to fly. I see some logic in the info posted that possibly supports the latter case, and maybe the pilot (me) needs fixing, not the model. Hmmm....

So...sounds like the trick is to keep speed low if you plan to bank, rely on the rudder to turn more than banking, and try to use the vertical. I will have to try this.

Interesting to have a plane that requires us to try a different way of flying.
 
I've read conflicting reports on the E.III. It was a "twitchy" aircraft and not terribly stable in the air. Beyond that I've read a variety of reports. They range from praise for the Eindecker's ability to dive to reports that describe the Eindeckers as inferior flying machines, even compared to the Morane-Saulnier N. Combat reports vary from sheer terror that the Eindecker was a real killing machine (Fokker "Scourge") to reports from captured German airmen saying that Nieuport pilots were wiping out the Fokkers.

I think we can probably agree that roll rate is poor due to wingwarping, that seems to be a recurring theme. Rudder control should be strong-- the comma-shaped Fokker rudder without stabilizer was a powerful tool, but a dangerous one too. Elevator control should also be strong, owing to the fact that they're the "flipper" type. I would imagine it should be sound in short dives, but probably not robust enough or responsive enough to sustain a hard, long dive. If I had to guess, I would think this would make a workable starting point for an Eindecker. The Eindecker SHOULD be hard to fly-- I don't think I've ever read a report saying it was an easy aircraft to fly compared to more modern scouts.
 
Hi all, 1st post.. excellent post here... good game atm... but crashing every flight in the eindekker.

Please tell me what im doing wrong, as im having difficulties flying this aircraft... I understood your points about the turning and diving but its the level flight thats hard too.

after take off I have to fly with the stick hard back the whole time.. i can hardly climb, when i throttle back the plane dropps like a brick, i cant keep up in formation... forget loops... its a joke the nose will never go up..

any help please!!

I do love these early birds
 
I've just been giving it a go, 1 vs 1 against the DH2. It can be flown all day long, but it needs max of 50% throttle to keep it's speed down, otherwise it loses control authority, and I believe proper rudder-pedals are a must (as opposed to a stick with a twist-rudder).

As for dogfighting, forget it. A couple of times I just about managed to get the DH vaguely in front of me but the only time I could hit it was during the head-on initial merge. How the AI are able to fly it the way they do beggars belief.

It'd be ok for attacking non-maneouvering 2-seaters, which I believe was it's only use in reality.
 
hmmm, i will try 50% throttle now... I have rudder pedals, but im really stuck with the throttle.. the plane falls out the air... :(
 
Wie gehts mein freund, viel dank for the movie. I was afraid for the pilot, haha. I lost my pilot last night after 6 flights and 3 claims, none confirmed. It was a simple non combat crashed approaching the airfield, like I had feared all along. Time for new pilot and back at it. I love the challenge. The way the EIII was handled in the movie clip reminds me exactlly of flying the EIII in OFF. The hard things can be the most rewarding sometimes. I took a QC flight in a BEBE and could handle it like no tomorrow. Downed 3 AE and the the drum was empty. So there you go. Good in some areas come up short in others. Most of these birds are unigue in what the offer for plus and minus traits. Real life man. On my pc, I'm loving it!
 
You don't give up easily, do you? Great you have so much fun, Jim!
I'll try an Eindecker campaign soon, too. And some flights in the Roland C II - if I remember how to switch from pilot to rear gunner?
 
Jim - I started the Eindecker campaign!

And it's fun! That plane ain't that bad at all! Even did the Immelmann turn with it! My only advice: trim it, until it flies level straight. After that, it's fun!
Here's my report:

Kampfeinsitzer-Kommando Douai, 21. März 1916
Leutnant Guenther Mahlo

After three days of terrible rain and strong wind, we could fly today. Our mission was,
to escort three ROLAND C II reconnaissance planes over the front line, north-west of Douai.
Boelke and Immelmann were so keen on flying again, that they took flight 1, whilst I lead flight 2,
accompanied by Julius Grund and Siegfried Werner.

After assembling, we headed north-west, and spotted the Rolands about 8.40 h.
We circled above the target area for some 10 minutes, when flight 1 arrived, at higher altitude.
A flight of 4 Sopwith Strutter crossed overhead, and I watched them, but they followed their own course.
Boelke and Immelmann follow them in respectful distance, but break off, as they realise, the Strutters
have another target but us.

Deep below us, I can make out 3 planes of a bright sand colour.
Through my glasses, I can identify them as British two-seaters, but can't recognize the type.
We carry on circling, until our recon friends seem to have their pictures done, and turn away.
To fly home with them, gives me a safe feeling; the Beobachter is waving; his machine gun blinking
in the sun. The weather is just wonderful for flying, and after all the rain, I get so overwhelmed,
that I suddenly want to try it for the very first time: Immelmann's turn!
I dive a bit, and then I pull hard on the stick! She's rising her nose above the horizon, higher and
higher, as if she wants to fly straight into the sun! And then we are on our back, and I roll her round -
done!! I'm flying right through inbetween two Rolands, and the Beobachter slowly shakes his head -
but then he waves at me. Yes, my son, that is some manoeuver you can't do in your "Walfisch" -
the sheer excitement of a Kampfeinsitzer-Pilot!!
 
Hello Olham,
i hope the Rolands did a good escort for you Eindeckers lol - did you even keep up with the Roland's speed ?

Greetings,
Catfish
 
Hi again,,, after flying after some british bombers i still have the same problem! The plane doesnt lift... im afraid my saiteck will snap! im applying so much up force.. but when i hit the down arrow on the key board it moves the elevators more...

its odd... like the saiteck dowsnt want to apply more lift... :(

Any thoughts why this E3 wants to nose dive all the time?

oh... also.. another odd feature.. when i get into a firing position the pilot seems to have a fit!! the plane suddenly without warning spins like a crazy gyroscope down to the ground :(

surely thats not realistic?
 
I just done a few QC with the EIII. It is like Olham said. Trim it,trim it! Trim it to a little nose up, and hey, you are ready to dance with the Bris Scout! Was fun,.... downed one! Work with the throttle and the rudder! Until now, just regular manuevers. A little bank here, a full turn there. Nothing frenzy, like Immelmanns. If you get caught in that death spiraling, try to raise the nose up above the horizon, pull throttle to idle, counter rudder and stick, and kick in the power again.

Regards!:wavey:
 
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