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The Staff of SOH
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Please see the most recent updates in the "Where did the .com name go?" thread. Posts number 16 and 17.
Franz Stiger's Bf-109
- Thread starter Human Drone
- Start date
Human Drone
Charter Member
Good Stigler-Brown article
Gotta make this quick, i worked all night on a report I'd promised IRL to a customer and it's late. Here's one of the best write-ups I've seen so far:
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=dday_0033p1
Different sources mention Lt. Brown ordering the engineer to the top turret, but I can't find the one that says Lt. Stigler saw him and thought it best to bank away at that point.
& Good Glory man! How am I supposed to pick a good -109 from all those you've listed, with this engineand tha engine... You're a walking Bf-109 encyclopedia!
Best,
Tom
Gotta make this quick, i worked all night on a report I'd promised IRL to a customer and it's late. Here's one of the best write-ups I've seen so far:
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=dday_0033p1
Different sources mention Lt. Brown ordering the engineer to the top turret, but I can't find the one that says Lt. Stigler saw him and thought it best to bank away at that point.
& Good Glory man! How am I supposed to pick a good -109 from all those you've listed, with this engineand tha engine... You're a walking Bf-109 encyclopedia!
Best,
Tom
greycap.raf
Charter Member
To put it short, as long as it says "DB605DCM" on the description you're set. Those are the machines with the best engine option and usually with a 30mm cannon, no matter if you pick a G-10 or a K-4 - the G-10 climbs (very) slightly better and turns slightly better but is slower while the K-4 is faster and smoother to fly. In reality they were just about the same aircraft with two different designations.
Having said that, they're all better than you might expect. The basic G-6 and G-14 series suffer from a power shortage but will still turn with any US aircraft the AI can throw at you as long as it's equipped with a realistic flight model, the Bf 109G is far better as a dogfighter than its reputation implies. When you get to the MW50 boosted G-6 and G-14 models, not to mention the G-10 and K-4 series you'll find that you can take on a P-51 on equal terms. The main difference between the DBM and DCM models is the power delivery, the DBM gives 1550 bhp on military power and 1850 bhp on MW50 while the DCM gives 1800 bhp on military power and 2000 bhp on MW50. The actual performance difference on emergency boost isn't that noticable but generally you'll have to use it more on the DBM versions, the DCM is powerful enough to do most of the fighting on just full throttle.
The entire series was about as confusing as it seems, it wasn't once or twice when we found that something that was thought to be a definite sign of a certain version was actually a possible leftover from building the aircraft with an older spec fuselage for example. No G-10 "should" have a hand grip behind the cockpit on the right side if we're talking strictly about how it was supposed to be built but in reality many of them were surplus G-6 fuselages with new engines and thus the grip remained. So yes, there indeed were variations of variations and pretty much every aircraft from the late G-6 series onwards was an unique mix of details.
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
If you look at the port forward fuselage on DL_Bf109g-10DB_Yellow13, flown by OFw Heinrich Bartels, 15./JG 27, you'll see two maker's plaques; this isn't just parts produced originally for a G-6, but a completely rebuilt aircraft, originally wheeled out as a G-14. The other G-10s in the collection still have the theoretically deleted hand hold, while the K-4s, built with specific-to-type parts, do not... Note also that some G-10s have G-4/5/6/14 type wheels, and some have the larger K-4 type wheels! Basically, no two are quite the same.
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
Back to real history.
In December 1943, Stigler was OC 6./JG 27, so a part of II./JG 27 as evidenced by the Berlin Bear on the cowling.
Anybody starting to scratch his head yet? They should be. Those illustrations are erroneous to say the least.
That squiggle behind the cross is complete rubbish. It's for III./JG 27 but by 1944 III./JG 27 tended to use the typical late war vertical bar anyway.
II Gruppe used the horizontal bar, as they were supposed to.
Yellow is however the correct Staffel colour for 6./JG 27.
The artists have based their representations on the picture of Stigler's aircraft later in the war.
In December 1943, Stigler was OC 6./JG 27, so a part of II./JG 27 as evidenced by the Berlin Bear on the cowling.
Anybody starting to scratch his head yet? They should be. Those illustrations are erroneous to say the least.
That squiggle behind the cross is complete rubbish. It's for III./JG 27 but by 1944 III./JG 27 tended to use the typical late war vertical bar anyway.
II Gruppe used the horizontal bar, as they were supposed to.
Yellow is however the correct Staffel colour for 6./JG 27.
The artists have based their representations on the picture of Stigler's aircraft later in the war.
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
I think this is as close as it is possible to get.
The III./JG 27 squiggle I have dismissed above, and here the aircraft wears the horizontal bar of II./JG 27 which corresponds to the Berlin Bear on the cowling.
Then, after peering at all the photos I can find of aircraft of II./JG 27 after their return to Germany, I can find not one single picture of any aircraft with a white spinner. Again, I put this down to artistic licence combined with a lack of adequate research. Black, Schwarzgrun RLM 70 or black with a white spiral (which is not possible with this model anyway) come out as being the most probable possibilities.
Uploading once I've put the package together.
The III./JG 27 squiggle I have dismissed above, and here the aircraft wears the horizontal bar of II./JG 27 which corresponds to the Berlin Bear on the cowling.
Then, after peering at all the photos I can find of aircraft of II./JG 27 after their return to Germany, I can find not one single picture of any aircraft with a white spinner. Again, I put this down to artistic licence combined with a lack of adequate research. Black, Schwarzgrun RLM 70 or black with a white spiral (which is not possible with this model anyway) come out as being the most probable possibilities.
Uploading once I've put the package together.
Human Drone
Charter Member
Splendid! And I think you are right. the caption of the picture with the apple that I uploaded (and poster earlier as well) said it was taken in April 1944, and that the wavy line had replaced the horizontal bar as the Gruppe symbol. So you nailed it! I'm tickled, I'll try to get the write-up to you tomorrow. Would it be proper to credit John Shaw for giving us a hand with the apple etc, and in general for being a nice guy?
Thanks a million! :salute:
Tom
Thanks a million! :salute:
Tom
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
Would it be proper to credit John Shaw for giving us a hand with the apple etc, and in general for being a nice guy?
Thanks a million! :salute:
Tom
Might as well - he did contribute some help.
20MikeMike
Charter Member
Thank you all for this thread love the info love the details
Oh and the a/c are great keep the 109's comming
Chris
Oh and the a/c are great keep the 109's comming
Chris
Human Drone
Charter Member
I'm pleased as punch myself. I couldn't get the write-up done today, but will try tomorrow. I think it's an important thing to remember. Err... I hope that skin's on one of thsoe nice, hot G-6's that you guys were talking about.
I was going agains 109's in QC last night in the Spitfire with the 6-bladed prop, and I had a dickens of a time getting any hits. Of course, what am I saying? Lt. Stigler flew 478 missions and had less than 30 confirmed kills, and he was one of the good ones!
Best,
Tom
I was going agains 109's in QC last night in the Spitfire with the 6-bladed prop, and I had a dickens of a time getting any hits. Of course, what am I saying? Lt. Stigler flew 478 missions and had less than 30 confirmed kills, and he was one of the good ones!
Best,
Tom
ndicki
Charter Member 2016
There isn't a Spitfire with a 6-bladed airscrew, unless you count the Seafire F.22/24, which doesn't exist in CFS3 anyway. The MkXIV and subsequent Griffon-engined types had 5 blades...
With a MkXIVe - the E-type armament is a bit more effective - you should be chewing the 109s to bits! As a pure dogfighter, the Griffon Spitfire outclassed every other piston-engined aircraft in the book in virtually every respect. The only thing you need to watch out for with 109s is the initial rate of dive, but you should be able to catch them up as you go down - if you go down. It is not a good idea tactically. Otherwise, while they're not the easy meat some say, they certainly don't have the edge on you.
You need to watch out for 190s though - their rate of roll is better, and when bounced from astern, rather than breaking in the horizontal, a good 190 pilot will flick-roll his aircraft through 180 degrees so he's upside down, and then dive at as tight an angle as he can. You'll lose him, but he won't be able to recover height and energy fast enough to be an immediate threat to you anyway.
Keep at it! Make sure you use the AI versions of the DL 109s as targets though - CFS3 does not add the fuel, ammo and crew to the weight used to calculate the flight dynamics of AI aircraft. Ours compensate to some degree for that by adding extra weight without changing the flight model.
I wish I had your computer though! My old P4 is no longer really cutting edge!
With a MkXIVe - the E-type armament is a bit more effective - you should be chewing the 109s to bits! As a pure dogfighter, the Griffon Spitfire outclassed every other piston-engined aircraft in the book in virtually every respect. The only thing you need to watch out for with 109s is the initial rate of dive, but you should be able to catch them up as you go down - if you go down. It is not a good idea tactically. Otherwise, while they're not the easy meat some say, they certainly don't have the edge on you.
You need to watch out for 190s though - their rate of roll is better, and when bounced from astern, rather than breaking in the horizontal, a good 190 pilot will flick-roll his aircraft through 180 degrees so he's upside down, and then dive at as tight an angle as he can. You'll lose him, but he won't be able to recover height and energy fast enough to be an immediate threat to you anyway.
Keep at it! Make sure you use the AI versions of the DL 109s as targets though - CFS3 does not add the fuel, ammo and crew to the weight used to calculate the flight dynamics of AI aircraft. Ours compensate to some degree for that by adding extra weight without changing the flight model.
I wish I had your computer though! My old P4 is no longer really cutting edge!
Human Drone
Charter Member
<Strokes chin thoughtfully...> You know, I wrote a program to post-process our vibration test measurements here at work, and one common problem is skipped points or other numbering issues - and when the program detects such an issue, it pops up a standard Windows error dialog with the message "Doofus 'ENGINEER' can't count!" Apparently this is oh-so-true...
And as for me "Chewing them up", well, I was just being honest picking my screen name...
again. And while we're on the subject of blushing, did you notice I misspelled Lt. Stigler's name in the thread title? I wonder if anyone at the admin level could fix that?The AI's seem to have it correct, though, they do seem to dive out of the picture quickly- as you said, I try to pick the "aftermarket" models in ETO to fly against. Probably IRL they'd then scoot for home, but constrained by QC, these poor drones just then hang around at low altitudes like plums for the picking. But thanks so much for the additional tips, it sure helps. My brother-in-law says we'd need to have a C-130 flying behind us to hold all the ammo we fire in one round of QC! I'm trying to work through the flying lessons in FSX, and I know all about the control surface functions, the aerodynamics of lift, all that jazz, it's just a matter of getting hands, feet and head together to actually fly. I pull up into stalls a lot, I try to turn too tight, my poor (AI) wingman must simply get lost!
So yeah, I'm real thankful for the new system - I'm 10 years from retirement, the kids are grown, we finally have a few sheckels ahead of us, and my old box was an Athlon 3200 with 2GB of RAM and an AGP 8x graphics card, the old parallel ATA 133 hard drives... I work from home some days, and I'm a happy now - I do stress analysis, and a problem that took 1 hr 45 minutes on my office machine solved in 6 minutes on this one, and 20 minutes on the fastest machine in the office.
So I hope you can get a new box soon. One thing I really love about this rig is the TrackIR - being able to look around at will is fantastic, and it takes that function off my poor uncoordinated hands! Plus you can look around a lot more than you ever could with the hat switch, as the TrackIR does all 6 types of head motion, so you can look up over the cowl, or get your head closer to the canopy to look straight down, etc.
Still, the difficulty of it all just makes me respect the fellows who actually flew these machines just that much more. Granted they had a slight control advantage in actually feeling the g's, etc, but still... criminee, I don't know how I'd get by without the tactical radar and the red/blue tags on the other planes.
Okay, I gotta go justify my salary. I'll get a write-up to you as soon as I can.
Thanks again,
Tom
gosd
Charter Member
Thought I'd better do the rest. The B-17F really is not up to my usual standard, and is just a quickie I banged off using an ancient template I did years ago before I knew how to do any better. Think of it as a placeholder...
When are you planning to release the aircrafts ?
Human Drone
Charter Member
That'd apply to me. I got called out of town on an emergency outage and so I haven't been able to put the text together for you. Next week I hope!
Tom
Tom
Human Drone
Charter Member
Real life has interfered badly - a 4 day trip to Orlando, another to Houston, and I'm headed back to Houston this afternoon. I have been barely keeping up, but I don't want anyone to think I've forgotten my little contribution, nor this fine skinning job by our friend here.
BTW, can GIMP handle dds files?
Best,
Tom
BTW, can GIMP handle dds files?
Best,
Tom