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Fraternization problems.....

Navy Chief

Navy Chief

Senior Member
Hopefully this isn't too political to post about. But when I read of such things happening, my blood pressure rises. Reason? It needn't have happened, but for idiotic policy changes.

Check this out:

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/destroyer-co-master-chief-removed-over-fraternization-cases

This is one reason why I chose to retire at 20 years. When the idiots (i.e. former Congresswoman Patsy Schroeder) in D.C. made the decision to put women on combat ships, they changed the Navy forever.

Understand my opinion on this. My main opposition against it from the beginning was because the Navy did NOT need fixing. The military is not the place for social experimentation, and fraternization is much more commonplace than the general public hears about.

So what did they expect would happen?

On a humorous note, I submit to you for your enjoyment, an article by Fred Reed that I have previously posted before:

http://www.fredoneverything.net/Potties.shtml

Navy Chief
 
All the bad press the Navy received in the wake of the Tailhook '91 scandal paved the way for Schroeder and the other DACOWITS fem-bots to force the Navy to open combatant billets to females. :mad: My personal opinion is that female sailors should be restricted to shore commands and non-combatant shipboard billets, at least for their first enlistment. That said, I'll admit there are many ships and squadrons where the guys and gals work together and there is no problem with fraternization. Leadership is the key. Officers, CPO's and senior Petty Officers all have to set a good example. In the case of the ship in the article, I was disappointed to see five Chiefs implicated in the fraternization charges. :frown: I would say there's a definite leadership problem in the Chief's Mess, and the Command Master Chief deserved to be relieved.
 
I agree with you TarpsBird, but bottom line is when they started billeting women on combat ships, it added additional problems just because of the difference between the genders, period. Contrary to what our illustrious politicians may say, women and men are NOT the same creatures.

I maintain it was a decision that should NOT have been made.

On a performance scale, I will say this. During my last assignment to VQ-1, I recommended 3 sailors for the Navy Achievement Medal, and TWO of them were women. I never had any fraternization problems with my personnel. But it was a shore-based command.

But women on combat ships adds a element that has, and continues to cause problems that did NOT need to happen, were it not for stupid govt. decisions.

NC
 
I don't see this as a failure in leadership....I see it as simple biology in action. Anytime "Innies" and "Outies" are in close proximity for 6 months, surrounded by water, with no other opportunities for "biological exercise", those Innies and Outies are going to get together in the way that nature intended them to get together. It's simple biology. How the US Navy thinks that men and women, confined to a floating tin can for 6 months, are not going to do the horizontal tango is beyond my ability to fathom...but then again, I don't have my head shoved up my rear end.

OBIO
 
Those urges can be easily repressed. Just because you have an urge doesn't mean you have to act on it. We have a mind that can control those urges if we just use it. There was a few times I had an urge to slap the living **** out of a JO, but I repressed it and tried to teach them better.

As a Division Leading Chief on a warship with women onboard, my biggest headache with them onboard was the little darlings who decided that they didn't want to deploy and got pregnant to get out of it. I had about a dozen women in the division and I lost three without replacements due to them getting pregnant. The rest of us had to suck it up and carry on even more shorthanded than we normally were.
 
Women are still not allowed on subs because of limited space and lack of privacy.
 
Willy said:
Those urges can be easily repressed......... There was a few times I had an urge to slap the living **** out of a JO, but I repressed it and tried to teach them better.... The rest of us had to suck it up and carry on even more shorthanded than we normally were.
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I agree with you somewhat Willy, but the young sailors (in many cases) aren't exactly matured yet, and repressing such feelings/emotions is furthest from their priorities. Boys will be boys, and girls will be girls, etc.... And I too, had problems occasionally with JOs on this subject. One bozo in particular saw nothing wrong whatsoever with a First Class Petty Officer dating an female Airman who worked for him. I was fuming. In the end, I was able to get the PO1 transferred out of my division, but the JO just fought me at every turn.

And your comment about being shorthanded due to a sailor getting pregnant is another BIG problem; or used to be.

When a woman got pregnant at sea, they immediately flew her off the ship. Well, you know all too well that a replacement doesn't happen immediately, if at all. So if the sailor leaves the ship at the beginning of a deployment, it wasn't unusual to go the entire cruise without the billet being filled. So you are so correct, saying that other sailors would have to do extra work to take up the slack.

That is total bull....t. AND it didn't have to happen. Thank you Patsy Schroeder.

NC
 
My barracks were called a brothel by my squad commander and they really turned out to be, as experienced and heard. But as long as it doesn't grind operations down to a halt let them have a close quarters battle of the sexual kind during exercises, let privates work their privates, let the female recruits hit on the officers.



By the way: We're in the 21st century and not the medieval ages. Everyone can do whatever the heck he/she wants.
 
Funny how women and men seem to have that problem regardless of where they are ... :mixedsmi:
 
Snuffy said:
Funny how women and men seem to have that problem regardless of where they are ... :mixedsmi:
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Which is EXACTLY why it was a mistake to change what they did, back in the 90s. I know, I know, it's "water under the bridge", but I (along with many vets) lament the fact it did not, and should not have happened. And it's a real shame the Navy is having to deal with such things.

NC
 
Navy Chief said:
So pretty much a free-for-all military eh? Yeah, that sounds like a truly effective method. Not.
Click to expand...

I've seen female paratroopers, female MPs and mountain infantrywomen who, while looking pretty innocent and cute would easily kick your butt. So as long as the motivation and medical fitness is there let 'em im, regardless of ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation.
 
Hi Chief; I quess the good old man's navy is a thing of the past. Times have changed and will continue to change. Let's hope the next generations of sailors will figure out how to deal with having women on board. Jeez, in the good old days, if I remember correctly, and I may not, having a woman on board was bad luck. I have learned that a well trained military woman is just as useful as a well trained man.:salute:
 
mariereid said:
Hi Chief; I quess the good old man's navy is a thing of the past. Times have changed and will continue to change. Let's hope the next generations of sailors will figure out how to deal with having women on board. Jeez, in the good old days, if I remember correctly, and I may not, having a woman on board was bad luck. I have learned that a well trained military woman is just as useful as a well trained man.:salute:
Click to expand...


Like I had mentioned in an earlier post, I don't take issue with their job performance. But there are instances when strength is a required part of the job (i.e. aviation ordnanceman). I know of situations where a female AO was assigned to a tailhook squadron. But because she physically could NOT do heavy lifting, she was relegated to desk work only. That is total BS. In cases like that, a billet is being taken by someone who cannot do the job. Yeah, I know, "deal with it"....... But the "old" Navy, as it is referred to was less complicated. I am just saying it is a real shame is all.

Biologically, the differences will always have a deleterious effect on the USN. I don't see how that will ever change.

NC
 
I guess I'm 'old school' also, I wouldn't have minded working with/next to a female but thankfully I didn't have to- it would've been too distracting especially during a WESTPAC cruise. Im not too fond of DADT either, but again I got out before this 'new' Navy was created.
 
I use to tell my sailors to work smarter not harder. And as Enginemen, even the women under me could get the job done. There's usually more than one way to skin a cat. But I never sent one off to do paper work because she wasn't physically capable of doing the job. If she was an Engineman, I expected her to do the job of one. I never had one that couldn't if pressed to do it. Amazing what telling a sailor that work wasn't over for the day until the job is done will do.

The women in the Navy I had a problem with were the ones that used their sex to get over on everyone.
 
NC, when that came out I can't remember too many sailors that did like it other than officers. The Navy sure backed up on it when it came out that the Village People were gay.
 
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