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From the current issue of Austosport.

EasyEd said:
Hey All

All you had to do P was answer a direct question. I did in what I said.


-Ed-
Click to expand...

You didn't even answer my previous direct question & instead chose to follow up with your question....
Why should I even bother to answer yours....
 
Panther_99FS said:
And if you don't like the part in red,
Then perhaps Jafo is correct in his generalized assessment below....
Click to expand...

I'm always correct...even when I'm wrong I'm right...;)

The relative systemic failure [popularity-wise] of various US GrandsPrix indicates generally Americans just don't 'get it' [F1] yet can have half a million turn up to the Indy. Parochial is the word.....and it likely stems from the comparatively low number of American F1 drivers [population/affluence-wise you'd expect more].

Re EasyEd's comment re 'Vettel did the right thing'....no, he did not.
The ONLY reason he didn't take out himself AND Webber was that Webber isn't a hot-headed child and was sensible enough and skilled enough to keep their wheels from crossing.

You can like or dislike 'team orders' all you like...but it's integral to Formula One specifically because F1 is NOT ONLY a Drivers' Championship.

Unlike Nascar where the cars used bear no real resemblance to anything either on the road [as they once were] OR from a recognizable manufacturer....if you're lucky they may have a car name on them vaguely related to the engine...F1 has a Constructors' Championship which is crucial to the teams on-going commercial viability.
The 'big guys' might be safe.... Fiat has a bottomless pit of cash for Ferrari....[it's actually a company that makes cars and isn't in self-destruct mode a la Detroit], but the little guys NEED the points to offset some of the costs.

Now, the issue here is the hopeless intent to actually explain what F1 is to the ignorant/uncaring. No amount of explanation will counter the attitude/opinion that 'Seb did the right thing'.
He wasn't steering a tank around a left-turn freeway. He was involved in the most sophisticated motor sport category on 4 wheels.

The team orders he ignored could be balanced in Mark's favor if he [Vettel] formally withdrew from the next race.
THAT would be fair.

If he had taken out Webber [and himself] there'd be an incident report written....it'd go to the FIA Stewards...the Observer and the Drivers would be summoned.... we'd all get introduced to each other... video would be replayed...the Observer would recount in his own words what he saw...and the drivers would be asked to add anything. We'd be thanked and requested to wait outside...then the drivers would be asked to return. I wouldn't hear the outcome until it was public knowledge...but in this case I'd bet serious money Vettel would have a 10 place penalty.

OK, last time I was with the FIA stewards it was Berger vs. Arnoux .... which was a long time ago.... but I know how it works...;)
 
Jafo said:
You can like or dislike 'team orders' all you like...but it's integral to Formula One specifically because F1 is NOT ONLY a Drivers' Championship.

...F1 has a Constructors' Championship which is crucial to the teams on-going commercial viability.
The 'big guys' might be safe.... Fiat has a bottomless pit of cash for Ferrari....[it's actually a company that makes cars and isn't in self-destruct mode a la Detroit], but the little guys NEED the points to offset some of the costs.

Now, the issue here is the hopeless intent to actually explain what F1 is to the ignorant/uncaring. No amount of explanation will counter the attitude/opinion that 'Seb did the right thing'.
He wasn't steering a tank around a left-turn freeway. He was involved in the most sophisticated motor sport category on 4 wheels.

The team orders he ignored could be balanced in Mark's favor if he [Vettel] formally withdrew from the next race.
THAT would be fair.

If he had taken out Webber [and himself] there'd be an incident report written....it'd go to the FIA Stewards...the Observer and the Drivers would be summoned.... we'd all get introduced to each other... video would be replayed...the Observer would recount in his own words what he saw...and the drivers would be asked to add anything. We'd be thanked and requested to wait outside...then the drivers would be asked to return. I wouldn't hear the outcome until it was public knowledge...but in this case I'd bet serious money Vettel would have a 10 place penalty.

OK, last time I was with the FIA stewards it was Berger vs. Arnoux .... which was a long time ago.... but I know how it works...;)
Click to expand...

Thank you for laying this out for EasyEd.... :jump:
 
Jafo said:
The 'big guys' might be safe.... Fiat has a bottomless pit of cash for Ferrari....[it's actually a company that makes cars and isn't in self-destruct mode a la Detroit], but the little guys NEED the points to offset some of the costs.
Click to expand...

Actually Ferrari might be the only part of the Fiat group making any money at the moment....

Red Bull on the other hand sell a whopping 4 billion cans of their crap every year and probably can afford to spend more on their F1 team than any other car manufacturer. (And still have enough left for a hangar full of aircraft, a soccer team and a lot more!)
 
I read somewhere (I'll try and dig up the source) that in the super-secret world of F1 monies,
Red Bull won an estimated $98 million in 2011....
 
Hey All,

I get what Jafo said but it starts from a flawed premise - that it is appropriate that the constructor is what matters. F1 SHOULD PRIMARILY be a DRIVERS Championship with a constructor title being secondary.

Then you wouldn't have these "messes" like Schumacher and Barricello. You see the two - erector championship and driver championship - can conflict. Get rid of the conflict. The "ban" on team orders after that incident failed because the powers that be failed to change the fundamental basis for F1 - to take the spotlight and hence much of the power and control off the owners and put the light on the drivers and teams. They then needed to allocate season end money based on driver finishing positions at the end of the season to the owners of the teams. Drivers don't want to wreck each other - not with what is at stake.

If you want to base a series on constructors fine but don't then try to BS everybody by saying it is the pinnacle of racing. It isn't racing at all it is a strategy game among 11 so called "teams" simply trying to get points. Maybe to those who don't understand it is even entertainment.

Americans probably "get it" far better than you think and prefer racing. To each their own.

-Ed-
 
We're spending a few days at Bells Beach for the traditional round of the World Surfing Championships (men's finals Tuesday) and I was annoyed to see intrusive 'Red Bull' logos all over the place!
Even a few highly decorated boards wore the bloody thing.
When you take a careful look at where they place their advertising money I really get ticked off, aside from the fact that the product marketed is NOT a 'Health Food' the influence wielded internationally by this company is not healthy.
It's all Colin-Bloody-Chapmams fault!!

Here's one for the days of the real Grands Prix, I paid for several of my favourite Louis Lemantaski photographs (not cheap either) and this is a great favourite, dripping with atmosphere.

View attachment 83995
 
EasyEd said:
Hey All,

I get what Jafo said but it starts from a flawed premise - that it is appropriate that the constructor is what matters. F1 SHOULD PRIMARILY be a DRIVERS Championship with a constructor title being secondary.

Then you wouldn't have these "messes" like Schumacher and Barricello. You see the two - erector championship and driver championship - can conflict. Get rid of the conflict. The "ban" on team orders after that incident failed because the powers that be failed to change the fundamental basis for F1 - to take the spotlight and hence much of the power and control off the owners and put the light on the drivers and teams. They then needed to allocate season end money based on driver finishing positions at the end of the season to the owners of the teams. Drivers don't want to wreck each other - not with what is at stake.

If you want to base a series on constructors fine but don't then try to BS everybody by saying it is the pinnacle of racing. It isn't racing at all it is a strategy game among 11 so called "teams" simply trying to get points. Maybe to those who don't understand it is even entertainment.

Americans probably "get it" far better than you think and prefer racing. To each their own.

-Ed-
Click to expand...
Amen Ed,Americans get it,thats why 98%of american racers and fans can;t stand F1.Let us have our racing and keep F1 across the big pond where it belongs.
 
Nope...they still don't get it.
There is no drivers...and team...and constructor. The Constructor IS the team.
It's not a 'flawed premise' simply because it does not follow the Nascar 'method' of doing things..... and the focus on the drivers specifically in Indy is simply because precious few in the US even knew who or what Lola and/or March actually were....there was no relevance to them [the viewing public] re manufacturer.

It is only the very real parochial nature that is the American public who would NOT consider F1 as the pinnacle of Motor Racing.
The same occurs with the American Superbike series.....suddenly there's a dose of reality when they [the American riders] think they will automatically dominate in the SBK. But they don't.
Maybe it's something to do with that old french fries animosity towards France...which is the home of both the FIA and FIM.

Of course...my history with officiating with the bikes isn't quite as long....got my 20 year certificate for the SBK in Feb [Phillip Island] and should have the MotoGP one this October.

Back to F1 being the pinnacle..... what other category could you find a 1.5 litre engine pumping out 1200 horse power? OK, that was the Brabham BMW ....and was called a 'detonator engine' cos it was for qualifying and would only last about 3 laps... but race tune would see 800 for 2 hours+ .... not bad for something the size of a Toyota Corolla.

I can describe first-hand how quickly an F1 accellerates ... one year I push-started Senna out of pit exit [on my own...all 700 kilo] in Adelaide. It only had 2 speeds....my push speed....and then gone. I ended up A over T in his wake.


Anyway...it's quite a safe bet that F1 won't change its ways simply to suit the taste of one closetted potential audience...not when the rest of the world follows it avidly now as it is.


Every year there are attempts to slow the cars down to maintain a sensible level of safety and/or price...and every year about half way through the cars end up faster anyway. That's what the pinnacle of Motor Racing is all about...pushing the envelope.

There is NOTHING in the technology of F1 that is eclipsed by any other category...and it's equivalent on 2 wheels is the Moto.

Now, re the bikes... Phillip Island has just been resurfaced...accurate to 2mm via GPS ...it's super-smooth...seeing all sorts of lap records broken in the SBK ... terminal velocity went from 310 to 320 kph ...so it'll be interesting in the Moto...as currently the fastest recorded speed is 336. I think 350 kph going into turn 1 might just separate the men from the boys....[but I bet Randy will try...on the 2 seater]...;)
 
Thoe6969 said:
Amen Ed,Americans get it,thats why 98%of american racers and fans can;t stand F1.Let us have our racing and keep F1 across the big pond where it belongs.
Click to expand...


Let's see here...

1) You guys don't like F1. Nothing inherently wrong with that

However.....

2) Even though you don't like F1, you guys proceed to read F1 threads. (why?)

3) Then you guys post nothing but anti-F1/negative comments within the F1 thread. (If you don't like F1, why bother even reading F1 threads & posting in them?)


 
Panther_99FS said:

Let's see here...

1) You guys don't like F1. Nothing inherently wrong with that

However.....

2) Even though you don't like F1, you guys proceed to read F1 threads. (why?)

3) Then you guys post nothing but anti-F1/negative comments within the F1 thread. (If you don't like F1, why bother even reading F1 threads & posting in them?)
Click to expand...

Because they are trolling the argument that if it isn't Freeway Racing or at least run like Freeway Racing then it clearly isn't motor sport....;)

Don't get me wrong...my job [in motor sport] is as easy as piss with Nascar....blind Freddie could see/read the numbers and be able to report who did what to whom.... whereas on the startline one year at Adelaide I had to formally call the car number of the winner as he got the chequered....and I calculated that at 260 kph [at startline] I had the grand total of 0.2 seconds to eyeball the number. It was behind the front wheel but in front of the side pod.

BTW.... incidentally...the reason the F1 cars now have coloured camera pods was down to us Comms/Observers in Oz several years ago. We asked for them because the helmet colours weren't reliable [and we had test drivers AND 'T' cars back then]....and the teams provided them for us...;)
 
If this is implemented it will make for interesting times!
As a matter of interest I came across an article in Autosport that stated how angry Dietrich Mateschitz is with 'Team Vettel', as he has been a staunch supporter of Webber from the beginning.
Marko must be a very unhappy bunny.
I really can't see how this 'No Team Orders' proclamation will work out just the same.
A wait and see exercise ........... :kilroy:
 
Panther_99FS said:
Yet even more :pop4:
-> http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-red-bull-scraps-team-orders-after-malaysia-affair
Click to expand...

The comments on that item just show how dim-witted many F1 'fans' really are.

But.... the controversy entertains them... and it's a diversion from their usual.....watching a fly walk up a wall....;p

Rebels-without-a-clue.

*********************
No team orders..... it's the sort of thing for these two that can only end in tears. Eventually Webber will tire of being mature and careful....and the next time Vettel tries to over-drive he'll get punted into the weeds..... just as so many other driver 'spats' have ended.

As soon as all the controversy and publicity turns 'negative' for the brand/image ... where the injury outweighs the 'No.1 Driver/Team' title.... there'll be a "punting into the weeds" of a different kind... and it may not necessarily be the guy with the shorter contract...;)
 
I used to be a rabid F1 fan, not anymore. Current F1 has lost all of it's "flavour" for me. As wombat666's pic shows, there used to be a special atmosphere to F1. They should rename the current incantation to Bernie1 or B1. If one team was far ahead of the others, then so be it. F1 was supposed to be the pinnacle of motor racing. "Artificial" limitations have ruined it for me personally. I haven't attended or even watched a race in years. I used to attend 3-4 a year and watch all the rest via cable TV. No longer.
 
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