FSX newbie

Roger · Sep 14, 2010

Occasionally I am embarassed to be English. In England people are usually presumed innocent until proven guilty. Such Englishmen who disagree should withdraw until they have a bona fide case or just find someone else to bother...

heywooood · Sep 14, 2010

yeah some of this is just over the top....

I am against cracking codes and d/ling blatantly pirated software from known p/s torrent sites

but seriously - benefit of the doubt is still the civilized rule - even in an uncivilized world.

mmann · Sep 14, 2010

Well Timbo, at least you got everyone's attention!! I post about a freeware scenery and I didn't get even a quarter of the replies that you did! On the other hand I am not sure I would appreciate the sentiment expressed. Welcome to SOH by the way and I would recommend Acceleration if you intend to takeoff and land on aircraft carriers.

PRB · Sep 14, 2010

timbo, welcome to the FSX forum! My two cents, if the sim is (essentially) a gift to you, I don't see a problem. To be honest, with your opening post, a tiny alarm bell went off in my head as well, for the reason expressed by snave. I guessed it wouldn't be too long before somebody brought it up... Your answer is reasonable. I hope you like FSX. It gets some bad press, but it has it's moments! :icon_lol:

Tom Clayton · Sep 14, 2010

This is from the FS9 EULA:

Software Transfer. You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this EULA, provided you retain no copies, you transfer all of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT (including all component parts, the media and printed materials, any upgrades and this EULA) and the recipient agrees to the terms of this EULA. If the SOFTWARE PRODUCT is an upgrade, any transfer must include all prior versions of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.

While the EULA in FSX does not contain the same express transfer of license language, it does contain language in the warranty that implies that the same sort of permanent transfer is allowed:

TERM OF WARRANTY; WARRANTY RECIPIENT; LENGTH OF ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES. The limited warranty covers the software for one year after acquired by the first user. If you receive supplements, updates, or replacement software during that year, they will be covered for the remainder of the warranty or 30 days, whichever is longer. If the first user transfers the software, the remainder of the warranty will apply to the recipient.

falcon409 · Sep 14, 2010

I've never read that, but that clears up the question, if there ever should have been one to begin with, of whether or not timbo was in the clear with his "re-gifted" copy of FSX, lol.

Willy · Sep 14, 2010

I'm thinking that a public apology is in order here. When you accuse someone of something heinous and are proven wrong, then it's the least you can do to make things right. Especially when done in public.

Welcome to the forum timbo!

timbo2410 · Sep 14, 2010

Thank you all for your kind words and support :ernae: I mean where does all this end eh? I certainly had my eyes opened on this forum that's for sure (in more ways than one), I know bugger all about computers and freely admit that, that's why I ask a lot of really dumb questions, but I am still going to ask for hints, tips, suggestions along with commenting when and where I feel the need to. Above all, I will enjoy my flight sims ... after all ..... that's what they were made for weren't they :applause:

And I enjoy it all the more with all the upgrades, mods, patches that the members have put together for us all to share:salute:

Oh ... Snave .... It's allright .... I forgive you

Snave · Sep 14, 2010

Willy said:
I'm thinking that a public apology is in order here. When you accuse someone of something heinous and are proven wrong, then it's the least you can do to make things right. Especially when done in public.

Welcome to the forum timbo!

Never apologise for being right.

Here's the English Language EULA in FULL, just so there is no misconstruing of the FACTS.

MICROSOFT SOFTWARE LICENSE TERMS
MICROSOFT FLIGHT SIMULATOR X DELUXE EDITION
These license terms are an agreement between Microsoft Corporation (or based on where you live, one of its affiliates) and you. Please read them. They apply to the software named above, which includes the media on which you received it, if any. The terms also apply to any Microsoft
• updates,
• supplements,
• Internet-based services, and
• support services
for this software, unless other terms accompany those items. If so, those terms apply.
By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s refund policies. See www.microsoft.com/worldwide. In the United States and Canada, call (800) MICROSOFT or see www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm.
If you comply with these license terms, you have the rights below for each license you acquire.
1. OVERVIEW.
a. Software. The software includes desktop application software.
b. License Model. The software is licensed on a per copy per device basis.
2. INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS.
a. Licensed Device. The licensed device is the device on which you use the software. You may install and use one copy of the software on the licensed device. Except where this software is sold with development tools, this software is for entertainment purposes only. Where this software is sold with development tools, it may be used with those development tools as well as for entertainment purposes. In any event, this software cannot be part of an approved training program under the standards of the FAA or any other regulatory agency. Use of this software or any part of it to transfer data to another program not related to this software is prohibited.
b. Third Party Programs. The software contains third party programs. The license terms with those programs apply to your use of them.
3. ADDITIONAL LICENSING REQUIREMENTS AND/OR USE RIGHTS.
a. Additional Functionality. Microsoft may provide additional functionality for the software. Other license terms and fees may apply.
4. INTERNET-BASED SERVICES. Microsoft provides Internet-based services with the software including multiplayer play and weather data. It may change or cancel them at any time. You may not use these services in any way that could harm them or impair anyone else’s use of them. You may not use the services to try to gain unauthorized access to any service, data, account or network by any means. By using such features or otherwise engaging in Multiplayer Play, you agree that Microsoft or its agents may generate, store and transmit certain information that identifies your computer to other computers for purposes of Multiplayer Play. You also agree that the software may continue to generate, store and transmit such game information as necessary while engaged in Multiplayer Play. You agree that Multiplayer Play is not supervised or otherwise under the control of manufacturer or installer, Microsoft, or their agents. You acknowledge and agree that manufacturer or installer, Microsoft and their agents have no control over or responsibility for your experience while engaged in Multiplayer Play, or any content or other information or data you may create, encounter or receive, including chat, while you are engaged in Multiplayer Play. You acknowledge and agree that Multiplayer Play may not be consistently available or operate error free, and that Multiplayer Play may be discontinued by Microsoft or its agents at any time without notice to you.
5. SCOPE OF LICENSE. The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways. For more information, see www.microsoft.com/licensing/userights. You may not
• work around any technical limitations in the software;
• reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the software, except and only to the extent that applicable law expressly permits, despite this limitation;
• make more copies of the software than specified in this agreement or allowed by applicable law, despite this limitation;
• publish the software for others to copy;
• rent, lease or lend the software; or
• use the software for commercial software hosting services.
6. BACKUP COPY. You may make one backup copy of the software. You may use it only to reinstall the software.
7. DOCUMENTATION. Any person that has valid access to your computer or internal network may copy and use the documentation for your internal, reference purposes.
8. TRANSFER TO ANOTHER DEVICE. You may uninstall the software and install it on another device for your use. You may not do so to share this license between devices.
9. EXPORT RESTRICTIONS. The software is subject to United States export laws and regulations. You must comply with all domestic and international export laws and regulations that apply to the software. These laws include restrictions on destinations, end users and end use. For additional information, see www.microsoft.com/exporting.
10. SUPPORT SERVICES. Microsoft provides support services for the software as described at www.support.microsoft.com/common/international.aspx.
11. ENTIRE AGREEMENT. This agreement (including the warranty below), and the terms for supplements, updates, Internet-based services and support services that you use, are the entire agreement for the software and support services.
12. APPLICABLE LAW.
a. United States. If you acquired the software in the United States, Washington state law governs the interpretation of this agreement and applies to claims for breach of it, regardless of conflict of laws principles. The laws of the state where you live govern all other claims, including claims under state consumer protection laws, unfair competition laws, and in tort.
b. Outside the United States. If you acquired the software in any other country, the laws of that country apply.
13. LEGAL EFFECT. This agreement describes certain legal rights. You may have other rights under the laws of your state or country. You may also have rights with respect to the party from whom you acquired the software. This agreement does not change your rights under the laws of your state or country if the laws of your state or country do not permit it to do so.
14. LIMITATION ON AND EXCLUSION OF DAMAGES. You can recover from Microsoft and its suppliers only direct damages up to the amount you paid for the software. You cannot recover any other damages, including consequential, lost profits, special, indirect or incidental damages.
This limitation applies to
• anything related to the software, services, content (including code) on third party Internet sites, or third party programs; and
• claims for breach of contract, breach of warranty, guarantee or condition, strict liability, negligence, or other tort to the extent permitted by applicable law.
It also applies even if
• repair, replacement or a refund for the software does not fully compensate you for any losses; or
• Microsoft knew or should have known about the possibility of the damages.
Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, so the above limitation or exclusion may not apply to you. They also may not apply to you because your country may not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental, consequential or other damages.
**************************************************************************************
LIMITED WARRANTY
A. LIMITED WARRANTY. If you follow the instructions, the software will perform substantially as described in the Microsoft materials that you receive in or with the software.
B. TERM OF WARRANTY; WARRANTY RECIPIENT; LENGTH OF ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES. The limited warranty covers the software for one year after acquired by the first user. If you receive supplements, updates, or replacement software during that year, they will be covered for the remainder of the warranty or 30 days, whichever is longer. If the first user transfers the software, the remainder of the warranty will apply to the recipient.
To the extent permitted by law, any implied warranties, guarantees or conditions last only during the term of the limited warranty. Some states do not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty lasts, so these limitations may not apply to you. They also might not apply to you because some countries may not allow limitations on how long an implied warranty, guarantee or condition lasts.
C. EXCLUSIONS FROM WARRANTY. This warranty does not cover problems caused by your acts (or failures to act), the acts of others, or events beyond Microsoft’s reasonable control.
D. REMEDY FOR BREACH OF WARRANTY. Microsoft will repair or replace the software at no charge. If Microsoft cannot repair or replace it, Microsoft will refund the amount shown on your receipt for the software. It will also repair or replace supplements, updates and replacement software at no charge. If Microsoft cannot repair or replace them, it will refund the amount you paid for them, if any. You must uninstall the software and return any media and other associated materials to Microsoft with proof of purchase to obtain a refund. These are your only remedies for breach of the limited warranty.
E. CONSUMER RIGHTS NOT AFFECTED. You may have additional consumer rights under your local laws, which this agreement cannot change.
F. WARRANTY PROCEDURES. You need proof of purchase for warranty service.
1. United States and Canada. For warranty service or information about how to obtain a refund for software acquired in the United States and Canada, contact Microsoft at
• (800) MICROSOFT;
• Microsoft Customer Service and Support, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052-6399; or
• visit www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm.
2. Europe, Middle East and Africa. If you acquired the software in Europe, the Middle East or Africa, Microsoft Ireland Operations Limited makes this limited warranty. To make a claim under this warranty, you should contact either
• Microsoft Ireland Operations Limited, Customer Care Centre, Atrium Building Block B, Carmanhall Road, Sandyford Industrial Estate, Dublin 18, Ireland; or
• the Microsoft affiliate serving your country (see www.microsoft.com/worldwide).
3. Outside United States, Canada, Europe, Middle East and Africa. If you acquired the software outside the United States, Canada, Europe, the Middle East and Africa, contact the Microsoft affiliate serving your country (see www.microsoft.com/worldwide).
G. NO OTHER WARRANTIES. The limited warranty is the only direct warranty from Microsoft. Microsoft gives no other express warranties, guarantees or conditions. Where allowed by your local laws, Microsoft excludes implied warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose and non-infringement. If your local laws give you any implied warranties, guarantees or conditions, despite this exclusion, your remedies are described in the Remedy for Breach of Warranty clause above, to the extent permitted by your local laws.
H. LIMITATION ON AND EXCLUSION OF DAMAGES FOR BREACH OF WARRANTY. The Limitation on and Exclusion of Damages clause above applies to breaches of this limited warranty.
This warranty gives you specific legal rights, and you may also have other rights which vary from state to state. You may also have other rights which vary from country to country.

Simply put, if our posters `friend` has ever activated his copy of the simulator, then passing it either in the form of `lend` defies the EULA.

QED.

He may NOT transfer it another computer for anothers use. Expressly and clearly stated, I find. Only criminals and morons would attempt to argue the point.

Equally obviously the stupid attempt at swervery noted above - buying it as a gift for someone else - is SPECIFICALLY covered by the EULA as the purchaser need NOT be the activator... As the criterion under which transfer is permitted is not overtly stated in the EULA, you would require to take formal guidance from Microsoft - not here - as to whether you have a legitimate copy of the software or not.

At this point, you don't. FACT.

So Timbo, no need to thank me for highlighting your contravention. Something you should have noted when you read the EULA prior to accepting its license terms.

mmann · Sep 14, 2010

This part of the EULA is interesting "If the first user transfers the software, the remainder of the warranty will apply to the recipient." The part I love is "You may not • work around any technical limitations in the software;". I guess no addons are allowed.

SkippyBing · Sep 14, 2010

• rent, lease or lend the software; or

It doesn't say you can't give it to someone though and as noted

"If the first user transfers the software, the remainder of the warranty will apply to the recipient."

Implies the software can be transferred to a recipient, by the first user.

From that you can construe that if the first user removes the software from their computer they can give, or indeed sell it, to a recipient. There are after all a number of companies trading in second hand games, presumably their business model isn't illegal or someone would have done something.

Of course you can always drive a truck through the EULA with this bit

13. LEGAL EFFECT. This agreement describes certain legal rights. You may have other rights under the laws of your state or country. You may also have rights with respect to the party from whom you acquired the software. This agreement does not change your rights under the laws of your state or country if the laws of your state or country do not permit it to do so.

flyer01 · Sep 14, 2010

5. SCOPE OF LICENSE. The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways. For more information, see www.microsoft.com/licensing/userights. You may not
• work around any technical limitations in the software;
• reverse engineer, decompile or disassemble the software, except and only to the extent that applicable law expressly permits, despite this limitation;
• make more copies of the software than specified in this agreement or allowed by applicable law, despite this limitation;
• publish the software for others to copy;
• rent, lease or lend the software; or
• use the software for commercial software hosting services.

His friend gave him FSX as a gift.

He did not-----publish the software for others to copy;
• rent, lease or lend the software; or
• use the software for commercial software hosting services.

"My mate installed the game for me as a suprise as HE had finished with it and didn't want it any more ..."

Henry · Sep 14, 2010

This conversation could and has gone on for years
i have many flight sim cd's cfs1, cfs2, fs98, fs2000 etc etc
that i do not use, is it legal to give them away
or do i burn them?
so i suggest that we get back on topic and be helpful
Thanks
H

timbo2410 · Sep 14, 2010

Snave could you point out the area that you think I have <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w

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ontVertAlignInTxbx/> <w:Word11KerningPairs/> <w:CachedColBalance/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->contravenedand so that I can pull your arguement apart

falcon409 · Sep 14, 2010

Yep, I agree Henry, despite the fact that I'm a "moron", I still think that forcing a point when it isn't there just to be "right" is unnecessary and folks like that should just go away. Timbo, enjoy your gift and welcome to FSX!!:salute:

timbo2410 · Sep 14, 2010

Thanks for the comments everybody, I was going to point out to snave that nowhere in the EULA does it refer to me not being able to use this legitimate copy of FSX. It is fine to quote a EULA but they must be taken in context and not just use them to have a rant. Also, the EULA is a very broad statement, it does not cover this very case and as others have pointed out, no breach of the EULA has been made anyway. Oh and the appology I refered to snave, was not for being wrong about the facts, but it was purely for poor form on your behalf. I go now to have a quick flight :salute:

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