wolfi
SOH-CM-2025
Hawker Hurricane Mk. VI Tsili-Tsili airfield, New Guinea, early 1943
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/6847225752/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/6847225752/in/photostream/
-
There seems to be an uptick in Political comments in recent months. Those of us who are long time members of the site know that Political and Religious content has been banned for years. Nothing has changed. Please leave all political and religious comments out of the forums.
If you recently joined the forums you were not presented with this restriction in the terms of service. This was due to a conversion error when we went from vBulletin to Xenforo. We have updated our terms of service to reflect these corrections.
Please note any post refering to a politician will be considered political even if it is intended to be humor. Our experience is these topics have a way of dividing the forums and causing deep resentment among members. It is a poison to the community. We appreciate compliance with the rules.
The Staff of SOH
Hawker Hurricane with Twin Wasp engine in the pacific
- Thread starter wolfi
- Start date
hurricane3
SOH-CM-2025
Thanks for this
Strange in all the hundreds of books I have on the Hurricane ,there has never been a word about this version.
Thankyou so much for adding yet another chapter to the Hurricane story.
Strange in all the hundreds of books I have on the Hurricane ,there has never been a word about this version.
Thankyou so much for adding yet another chapter to the Hurricane story.
Hello Hurricane 3
The author of the article points out that it is a what if, the article definately uses a lot of facts but the actual Hurricane conversion is a what if. The Boomer boys certainly got an excellent reputation for army co-operation.
One of the what-ifs for the Boomerang if if it had made it to CA-14 production - reports put the prototype comparing favourably with the Spitfire Mk.V and early Mustangs & Thunderbolts. Another what-if is the CAC CA-15. For ground attack there was also the CAC CA-11 Woomera but from what I have read it had a similar design philosophy to the Mitsubishi Betty and would have been very prone to going down in flames had it gone into production. Then there was the ultimate CAC fighter proposal, the CAC CA-23.
http://www.awm.gov.au/units/subject_640.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Boomerang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_CA-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Woomera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Aircraft_Corporation
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/MEGGS_CAC.html
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=150.0 (Note that the swing wing CA-23B is what-if, the rest is a real design study)
The author of the article points out that it is a what if, the article definately uses a lot of facts but the actual Hurricane conversion is a what if. The Boomer boys certainly got an excellent reputation for army co-operation.
One of the what-ifs for the Boomerang if if it had made it to CA-14 production - reports put the prototype comparing favourably with the Spitfire Mk.V and early Mustangs & Thunderbolts. Another what-if is the CAC CA-15. For ground attack there was also the CAC CA-11 Woomera but from what I have read it had a similar design philosophy to the Mitsubishi Betty and would have been very prone to going down in flames had it gone into production. Then there was the ultimate CAC fighter proposal, the CAC CA-23.
http://www.awm.gov.au/units/subject_640.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Boomerang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_CA-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Woomera
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Aircraft_Corporation
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/MEGGS_CAC.html
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=150.0 (Note that the swing wing CA-23B is what-if, the rest is a real design study)
hurricane3
SOH-CM-2025
don't know how I missed that
I totally missed the fact it was a what if. Thanks for straighting me out.I am disapointed that it was a what if, I always was dissapointed that Hurricanes didn't serve in the South Pacific ,I knew about the one that got as far as Australia but that was in a non combat role, and know about the ones in Java and of course in the CBI.
I totally missed the fact it was a what if. Thanks for straighting me out.I am disapointed that it was a what if, I always was dissapointed that Hurricanes didn't serve in the South Pacific ,I knew about the one that got as far as Australia but that was in a non combat role, and know about the ones in Java and of course in the CBI.
Reply...
Hurricane3,
I think the reason for that was primary due to the British and Japanese clashes in the Indian Ocean. In those skirmishes, the Hurricane, itself a good turning fighter, was outclassed by the Japanese Zero. Without an appreciable speed advantage, it's only remaining virtue was ruggedness, which was not enough. It was no better than a Buffalo, P-39, or P-36 in that regard, unable to hold its own against the Zero.
In short...the British saw the writing on the wall.
The P-40 and Wildcat are not included on this list, because they could tangle with a Zero if they did not dogfight in a style that suited the Zero's strengths.
Hurricane3,
I think the reason for that was primary due to the British and Japanese clashes in the Indian Ocean. In those skirmishes, the Hurricane, itself a good turning fighter, was outclassed by the Japanese Zero. Without an appreciable speed advantage, it's only remaining virtue was ruggedness, which was not enough. It was no better than a Buffalo, P-39, or P-36 in that regard, unable to hold its own against the Zero.
In short...the British saw the writing on the wall.
The P-40 and Wildcat are not included on this list, because they could tangle with a Zero if they did not dogfight in a style that suited the Zero's strengths.
hurricane3
SOH-CM-2025
I don't want to open a can of worms
I won't say your wrong in your assessment of the Hurricanes preformance but read this quote from page 163 chapter 13 of Francis K. Mason's book ,"The Hawker Hurricane". He is generally considered the foremost expert on the Hurricane and the book the definitive book on the subject.Quote"The First squadrons to arrive at Singapore were equipped with Hurricane I's II's and IIB's and, contary to reports put about at the time(and to some extant perpetuated ever since), the British aircraft were not generally inferior to the excellent Japanese carrier-born fighter, the Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero-Sen(ZEKE), possessing similar performance at around 17,000 feet, and a similar wing loading and turning radius.The Hurricane's Merlin produced a better power loading,and even the eight-gun battery discharged a higher weight of fire than the Japanese aircraft.The same assessment could be accorded in a comparison of the Hurricanes in Burma with the Japanese Army's Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa(Oscar)"
He goes on to say that bascially the British were overwhelmed by greatly superior numbers and inadequate warning.
First I don't want to get into an argument with anyone and I highly respect you(Rami) I'am sure youv'e forgotton more about aircraft than I'll ever know and I could never do what you do in creating missions and everything else you do, I'am just offering this information for what it's worth.
Thanks
I won't say your wrong in your assessment of the Hurricanes preformance but read this quote from page 163 chapter 13 of Francis K. Mason's book ,"The Hawker Hurricane". He is generally considered the foremost expert on the Hurricane and the book the definitive book on the subject.Quote"The First squadrons to arrive at Singapore were equipped with Hurricane I's II's and IIB's and, contary to reports put about at the time(and to some extant perpetuated ever since), the British aircraft were not generally inferior to the excellent Japanese carrier-born fighter, the Mitsubishi A6M2 Zero-Sen(ZEKE), possessing similar performance at around 17,000 feet, and a similar wing loading and turning radius.The Hurricane's Merlin produced a better power loading,and even the eight-gun battery discharged a higher weight of fire than the Japanese aircraft.The same assessment could be accorded in a comparison of the Hurricanes in Burma with the Japanese Army's Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa(Oscar)"
He goes on to say that bascially the British were overwhelmed by greatly superior numbers and inadequate warning.
First I don't want to get into an argument with anyone and I highly respect you(Rami) I'am sure youv'e forgotton more about aircraft than I'll ever know and I could never do what you do in creating missions and everything else you do, I'am just offering this information for what it's worth.
Thanks
peperez
Charter Member
British pilots tried to fight Zeroes and Hayabusas using tactics effective against BF109s. Against Japanese fighters, maneuverability was not an option. You must dive and zoom out. Hurricane Mk.II was superior to P-40B, except at maximum speed at low level, and Wildcat.
Cheers
Pepe
Reply...
Hurricane3,
That's a fair point. I was not aware of those studies, and if they are true, I stand corrected. Upon further reflection, a Zero's large frontal area from the radial engine would (and did) certainly reduce its performance to an extent, and the Zero's problems of maneuverability at high speed are well known.
Despite this, I still don't see a Hurricane out-turning or turning with a Zero, especially below its optimum fighting altitude. However, remember that I am a teacher, Hurricane. As such, I am not close-minded, and do listen and value the opinions of others.
No offense taken!
Hurricane3,
That's a fair point. I was not aware of those studies, and if they are true, I stand corrected. Upon further reflection, a Zero's large frontal area from the radial engine would (and did) certainly reduce its performance to an extent, and the Zero's problems of maneuverability at high speed are well known.
Despite this, I still don't see a Hurricane out-turning or turning with a Zero, especially below its optimum fighting altitude. However, remember that I am a teacher, Hurricane. As such, I am not close-minded, and do listen and value the opinions of others.
No offense taken!
hurricane3
SOH-CM-2025
Thanks RAMI & Peperaz
You guys are both right ,the Hurricane pilots tried to turn with the Zero at lower altitudes like they did with the BF 109E's and later with the F model 109.This just didn't work with the Zero but worked a bit better with the Hayabusa ,and Hurris did score some kills on both Japnese planes.
With different tactics ,the story may have been different.
You guys are both right ,the Hurricane pilots tried to turn with the Zero at lower altitudes like they did with the BF 109E's and later with the F model 109.This just didn't work with the Zero but worked a bit better with the Hayabusa ,and Hurris did score some kills on both Japnese planes.
With different tactics ,the story may have been different.