skyhawka4m
Charter Member
Hoping for FRENISI!!!
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The Staff of SOH
History and Details of the P-51D-5-NA (A Flight Sim Project)
- Thread starter Bomber_12th
- Start date
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
Odie, there was some 'controversy' generated many years ago, around the late 70's/80's within the warbird community, when at the time it was thought that 361st FG Mustangs, Lou IV included, were painted with blue paint, and many Mustang owners/restorers painted Mustangs in 361st FG markings with blue top-sides. This all stemmed from a set of poorly developed photos, from slides taken of the famous "Bottisham Four" formation flight (done purely for publicity). Through these photos, it seems to show the topside camouflage as being blue in color, and many took off with that idea. However, re-developed and color-corrected examples of the slides (as well as color photos from other sets) show Lou IV and the others in the 361st FG painted in OD/RAF green. When one of the 361st FG vets was questioned as to whether or not the aircraft were painted blue, he fired back a rather blunt response that was along the lines of, "No, that is what the Navy painted their airplanes!" (without curse words). Other 361st FG vets also have mentioned that their aircraft were finished in any sort of camouflage green, but certainly never blue. The currently flying P-51D "Geraldine" and P-51B "Impatient Virgin", by far, sport the closest to original 361st FG colors. Thinking in rational terms, there would have been no strategic gain/importance put on applying blue paint to the top of USAAF fighters, much less the baby blue applied to a number of restorations in the 80's. The practice that the 361st used, in painting the top-sides of their aircraft in any sort of camoflauge green they could find (either USAAF OD, or RAF green, depending on what was available) was the same practice that other groups, like the 353rd, 20th, 357th. 354th, etc, also undertook, so you can also look at groups like those, and understand what the general guidline/thinking was.
This is one of the original photos, as they were after originally being developed from the slides, that made it seem as if 361st FG Mustangs had blue top-sides, however notice how bad the color is from this development, with far too much blue bias.
Now this is how another photo from the same set of slides, appeared after a different development.
This is another example - note how much blue bias is in the photo, so much so that the shadows from the exhaust stacks look green - all of the colors are off.
Under a different development, this is how it looks.
Also, other color photos exist of 361st FG Mustangs, like these, which also provide a clearer picture of the colors (though they are still not 'great').
This is one of the original photos, as they were after originally being developed from the slides, that made it seem as if 361st FG Mustangs had blue top-sides, however notice how bad the color is from this development, with far too much blue bias.
Now this is how another photo from the same set of slides, appeared after a different development.
This is another example - note how much blue bias is in the photo, so much so that the shadows from the exhaust stacks look green - all of the colors are off.
Under a different development, this is how it looks.
Also, other color photos exist of 361st FG Mustangs, like these, which also provide a clearer picture of the colors (though they are still not 'great').
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
Just a few more days of work left to do, but here are some first glimpses of Maj. Tommy Hayes' famous 357th FG mount, "Frenesi".
Not a single P-51D was ever finished in anything other than bare metal from the factory, but many fighter groups early on and throughout 1944, didn't feel all that comfortable flying off into combat in bright and shiny P-51B's and D's. Several groups decided to paint the top-halves of their Mustangs in any form of camouflage green paint that they could get a hold of. The 357th did this, but also took it a bit farther on some planes, depending on the pilot's choice. Many bare metal Mustangs within the 357th FG, had either RAF green or USAAF OD painted over the entire aircraft, with either neutral gray, or an RAF equivalent, painted on the lower surfaces, reproducing the earlier pre-1944 era standard USAAF finish. "Frenesi" was one of the aircraft that received such attention, having originally been manufactured in bare-metal finish, and having the camouflage paint applied in the field. The 357th did a great and very neat job of this, going as far as painting around the aircraft's production block stencil (or re-applying it over the paint). A rather interesting detail, as seen in a couple of close-up images of "Frenesi", is that in an error either at the factory, or in a re-application of the data block stencil in the field, where it should read P-51D-5-NA on the side of the aircraft, it reads P-51-15-NA. This detail was recreated on the restored "Frenesi", and has also been recreated on this FSX reproduction.
For several years, decades ago, some thought that "Frenesi" applied to the side of the nose, simply was meant to be interpretted as/read as "Free N Easy", hower Maj. Hayes actually chose the name from the 1940 Artie Shaw song, "Frenesi". A Spanish word, "Frenesi" means "frenzy". Hayes chose the song's name as a tribute to his wife, as it was their favorite song between the two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMOHMYl5BCs
(If you would like, you can open the images in a new window/tab to view the screenshots in full resolution)
Not a single P-51D was ever finished in anything other than bare metal from the factory, but many fighter groups early on and throughout 1944, didn't feel all that comfortable flying off into combat in bright and shiny P-51B's and D's. Several groups decided to paint the top-halves of their Mustangs in any form of camouflage green paint that they could get a hold of. The 357th did this, but also took it a bit farther on some planes, depending on the pilot's choice. Many bare metal Mustangs within the 357th FG, had either RAF green or USAAF OD painted over the entire aircraft, with either neutral gray, or an RAF equivalent, painted on the lower surfaces, reproducing the earlier pre-1944 era standard USAAF finish. "Frenesi" was one of the aircraft that received such attention, having originally been manufactured in bare-metal finish, and having the camouflage paint applied in the field. The 357th did a great and very neat job of this, going as far as painting around the aircraft's production block stencil (or re-applying it over the paint). A rather interesting detail, as seen in a couple of close-up images of "Frenesi", is that in an error either at the factory, or in a re-application of the data block stencil in the field, where it should read P-51D-5-NA on the side of the aircraft, it reads P-51-15-NA. This detail was recreated on the restored "Frenesi", and has also been recreated on this FSX reproduction.
For several years, decades ago, some thought that "Frenesi" applied to the side of the nose, simply was meant to be interpretted as/read as "Free N Easy", hower Maj. Hayes actually chose the name from the 1940 Artie Shaw song, "Frenesi". A Spanish word, "Frenesi" means "frenzy". Hayes chose the song's name as a tribute to his wife, as it was their favorite song between the two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMOHMYl5BCs
(If you would like, you can open the images in a new window/tab to view the screenshots in full resolution)
skyhawka4m
Charter Member
:salute:
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
Captain Donald Emerson - Another of the Greats
Greenhouse357
SOH-CM-2023
Very nice John!
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
New Metal Textures
If you wouldn't mind, I would like to invite everyone to view the first four full-resolution screenshots on this linked page, and let me know what you think of the metal textures you see on the "Donald Duck" scheme - good or bad.
http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showt...5-NA-Nearing-Completion&p=1626562#post1626562
The screenshots feature textures that are further-advanced then those seen in the screenshots posted above to this thread. All of the bare metal schemes will be updated with the latest materials/artwork.
(The glass materials have also been a constant work-in-progress throughout the development of the product - if you could also let me know what you think of the glass, that would be great - I know many people's opinions differ on this matter)
If you wouldn't mind, I would like to invite everyone to view the first four full-resolution screenshots on this linked page, and let me know what you think of the metal textures you see on the "Donald Duck" scheme - good or bad.
http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showt...5-NA-Nearing-Completion&p=1626562#post1626562
The screenshots feature textures that are further-advanced then those seen in the screenshots posted above to this thread. All of the bare metal schemes will be updated with the latest materials/artwork.
(The glass materials have also been a constant work-in-progress throughout the development of the product - if you could also let me know what you think of the glass, that would be great - I know many people's opinions differ on this matter)
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
Thank you, Bob!
One of the things I also want to note, is how correct/authentic the nose art is on "Donald Duck". The artwork on the restored example, as can be seen at RAF Hendon, is quite far off (it's not even close!), as has also been a few of the decals sheets that have come out years in the past. I was able to use a very clear, original photo of the aircraft, to vector-draw the artwork, in the exact placement, following all of the original lines. It was colored with what can be agreed upon was likely the colors used (Donald is dressed in a blue RAF flying jacket, and an RAF life jacket - a reminder of Donald Emerson's time as an Eagle Squadron pilot, flying for the RAF).
DaveQ
Charter Member
Metal Finish
To be absolutely honest John, I prefer a less dappled rainbow texture to natural metal. You seem to have it just right with the first set of 'Little Friends' using alpha channels and specular shine to great effect. But, hey, you're the master of this, and, in any case it's all very subjective in the final analysis...
This is still perhaps the best FSX add-on that's ever been done and the attention to detail is truly mind-boggling....
Best wishes and good luck with this one; I'm at the front of the queue with card at the ready!
DaveQ
To be absolutely honest John, I prefer a less dappled rainbow texture to natural metal. You seem to have it just right with the first set of 'Little Friends' using alpha channels and specular shine to great effect. But, hey, you're the master of this, and, in any case it's all very subjective in the final analysis...
This is still perhaps the best FSX add-on that's ever been done and the attention to detail is truly mind-boggling....
Best wishes and good luck with this one; I'm at the front of the queue with card at the ready!
DaveQ
Metal Finish
The aircraft looks rough and of shoddy construction with the prominent dimpling at rivets and fasteners. I did not like the look of the texturing/finish at all. So much so that I looked back at photos I have taken to see how much the metal is distorted. I have a nice photo of DAKOTA KID II from 2005 Aviation Nation. In the highly polished state the dimpling and distortions are very easy to see once I look for them. So that effect is very accurate and perhaps a bit too prominent, especially on the canopy frame where the rivets stand out so much that someone will be counting. Completely voids the beautiful Mustang vision in my minds eye which, honestly, is not fair. I did not get a metal impression from the finish shown in the linked screenshots. Perhaps my first impression is " less is more". Would rather have to search for the detail in the skin and let the eye be attracted to other impressions first.
My photo shows an interestingly distinct blue/rainbow heat streak arcing back down the fuselage and fading out near the trailing edge of the wing.
Never liked the B/C models but love the D and have bought both packages.
Jim
The aircraft looks rough and of shoddy construction with the prominent dimpling at rivets and fasteners. I did not like the look of the texturing/finish at all. So much so that I looked back at photos I have taken to see how much the metal is distorted. I have a nice photo of DAKOTA KID II from 2005 Aviation Nation. In the highly polished state the dimpling and distortions are very easy to see once I look for them. So that effect is very accurate and perhaps a bit too prominent, especially on the canopy frame where the rivets stand out so much that someone will be counting. Completely voids the beautiful Mustang vision in my minds eye which, honestly, is not fair. I did not get a metal impression from the finish shown in the linked screenshots. Perhaps my first impression is " less is more". Would rather have to search for the detail in the skin and let the eye be attracted to other impressions first.
My photo shows an interestingly distinct blue/rainbow heat streak arcing back down the fuselage and fading out near the trailing edge of the wing.
Never liked the B/C models but love the D and have bought both packages.
Jim
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
Thank you for the feedback, gentleman, I'll have something new to show soon.
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
Okay, I have made a number of changes, in-line with what has been discussed. Please look over the new screenshots posted, showing the revised textures, and let me know what you think, if you could. All of the screenshots are un-edited:
http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?240356-Warbirdsim-P-51D-5-NA-Nearing-Completion
The more feedback, the better, and thank you again Dave and Jim!
I recently got a new LED monitor, and even though I have spent days trying to tweak it to display correctly, I still don't know for sure if what I am seeing is what most others are seeing, so I will have to look over these latest screenshots on another display as well, just to make sure.
http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?240356-Warbirdsim-P-51D-5-NA-Nearing-Completion
The more feedback, the better, and thank you again Dave and Jim!
I recently got a new LED monitor, and even though I have spent days trying to tweak it to display correctly, I still don't know for sure if what I am seeing is what most others are seeing, so I will have to look over these latest screenshots on another display as well, just to make sure.
jankees
SOH-CM-2025
I'm not sure John. On the one hand, there is a very nice metallic sheen to these new textures, but on the other hand I feel it might be a bit overdone.
You know me, I like them worn and dirty ( I may overdo it at times), so what does not feel right here are two things. Aluminium oxides when exposed to the air, and acquires a matte sheen. Now I know some squadrons really polished their aircraft, but others didn't. I'm not sure about the 4th FG, but it does strike me as a bit too shiny.
Then there is the fact that I see so little scratches on it. People walked over these aircraft with boots, and used metal tools to work on them, so I expect some more scratching in some places, both in the paint and the bare metal.
Apart from that, I think it looks very nice.
You know me, I like them worn and dirty ( I may overdo it at times), so what does not feel right here are two things. Aluminium oxides when exposed to the air, and acquires a matte sheen. Now I know some squadrons really polished their aircraft, but others didn't. I'm not sure about the 4th FG, but it does strike me as a bit too shiny.
Then there is the fact that I see so little scratches on it. People walked over these aircraft with boots, and used metal tools to work on them, so I expect some more scratching in some places, both in the paint and the bare metal.
Apart from that, I think it looks very nice.
Metal Finish
I agree with Jankees but he likes the finish looking like it is ready to retire.
If the dirt and grease settling into panel lines is really dark and messy I would expect the finish to be quite matte and some panels hardly reflective at all. Factory fresh aluminum would make the panel lines much more subtle. John, your textures show the panel lines very dark and the effect jumps out at me. The metal is slightly reflective now, so maybe this is an old aircraft that was once polished about a year ago. Or perhaps the RAF green was stripped off a few months before. How old would this plane be at the stage you are representing? 2 yrs at most?
Anyway, it looks more metallic, it's more appealing to me. I like it and when you are satisfied, I'll like it more. But, when it is flying on my screen, I'll love it. Only then would we see the full effect you created. Concerned that the screenshots don't do your work justice due to compression.
Jim
I agree with Jankees but he likes the finish looking like it is ready to retire.
If the dirt and grease settling into panel lines is really dark and messy I would expect the finish to be quite matte and some panels hardly reflective at all. Factory fresh aluminum would make the panel lines much more subtle. John, your textures show the panel lines very dark and the effect jumps out at me. The metal is slightly reflective now, so maybe this is an old aircraft that was once polished about a year ago. Or perhaps the RAF green was stripped off a few months before. How old would this plane be at the stage you are representing? 2 yrs at most?
Anyway, it looks more metallic, it's more appealing to me. I like it and when you are satisfied, I'll like it more. But, when it is flying on my screen, I'll love it. Only then would we see the full effect you created. Concerned that the screenshots don't do your work justice due to compression.
Jim
Bomber_12th
SOH-CM-2025
Okay, I did some more tweaking, and I am very nearly there, I think. Please take a look again:
http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showt...5-NA-Nearing-Completion&p=1626562#post1626562
There is very little reflection in the metal, while there is a nice over all sheen (the new textures/materials I have developed, allow the metal to have a much better/more accurate over all light refraction, than any of my past metal texture work - something that you can't really fully appreciate until seeing it in the sim first hand - basically the metal is able to stay in a rather dull state, but still look like metal, rather than say a plastic or painted surface). There are little scratches all over the metal, though you have to look quite closely to see them. Those that are familiar with my past texture work, I think will be very happy with these new textures/materials. Just a bit more to be adjusted/finalized I think.
Thank you once again to everyone who has responded with feedback - I'm very glad I asked for it! ; )
Speaking of the Donald Emerson scheme, and going from Jim's last posting, the aircraft would have been quite new, especially at the state of time I have decided to portray it. P-51D-5-NA's (the first D-models) didn't start to arrive in England until right at around D-Day, and just before, but no earlier than May of '44. That means that the most time that any of the D-models had, flying from England, at the time of D-Day, was no more than a few weeks, if not just days. This also means that on D-Day, there weren't all that many D-models that were operational yet - which also meant that only those with the most senior/highest ranking positions, had D-models at that point of time.
http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showt...5-NA-Nearing-Completion&p=1626562#post1626562
There is very little reflection in the metal, while there is a nice over all sheen (the new textures/materials I have developed, allow the metal to have a much better/more accurate over all light refraction, than any of my past metal texture work - something that you can't really fully appreciate until seeing it in the sim first hand - basically the metal is able to stay in a rather dull state, but still look like metal, rather than say a plastic or painted surface). There are little scratches all over the metal, though you have to look quite closely to see them. Those that are familiar with my past texture work, I think will be very happy with these new textures/materials. Just a bit more to be adjusted/finalized I think.
Thank you once again to everyone who has responded with feedback - I'm very glad I asked for it! ; )
Speaking of the Donald Emerson scheme, and going from Jim's last posting, the aircraft would have been quite new, especially at the state of time I have decided to portray it. P-51D-5-NA's (the first D-models) didn't start to arrive in England until right at around D-Day, and just before, but no earlier than May of '44. That means that the most time that any of the D-models had, flying from England, at the time of D-Day, was no more than a few weeks, if not just days. This also means that on D-Day, there weren't all that many D-models that were operational yet - which also meant that only those with the most senior/highest ranking positions, had D-models at that point of time.
Looking pretty nice
I'm sold. Dulled only by an ocean crossing and 30 days assembly and testing, then painted. I get just a little reflection and doesn't look like ' dented cardboard ' now. The rivets don't pop out as much. The skin has less of a dirty look to me. For such a short time in service, those Army boys have sure been sloppy with the refueling!
Sir, MSgt Tennant reporting for duty. Ready to polish this bird in exchange for a ride around the field, oh damn, only one seat. Guess I better apply for flying school.
Jim
The glass, think it looks completely right.
I'm sold. Dulled only by an ocean crossing and 30 days assembly and testing, then painted. I get just a little reflection and doesn't look like ' dented cardboard ' now. The rivets don't pop out as much. The skin has less of a dirty look to me. For such a short time in service, those Army boys have sure been sloppy with the refueling!
Sir, MSgt Tennant reporting for duty. Ready to polish this bird in exchange for a ride around the field, oh damn, only one seat. Guess I better apply for flying school.
Jim
The glass, think it looks completely right.