Hood/Prince of Wales vs Bismarck/Prinz

R

redriver6

Guest
Collin invited me to start a new thread on this subject so i reckon i will....

what if...the Hood and PoW instead of turning at extreme range to present their broadsides...what if they had continued to close the range at high speed firing only the forward guns.

its easy to armchair general (or in this case admiral) but the closer the Hood got, the less extreme the plunging fire would have been...who knows.

i realize that PoW was a 'green' ship and was having problems with her fancy new turrets but....she was the ship that put a hole in the Bismarck's bow causing a fuel leak..
 
I have thought about this too. I would have closed the distance to avoid the plunging fire as well. It had to have been well known that Hood was vulnerable to this type of fire.

I wonder if Hood had altered course slightly after she took the first hits that she amidships afire? Then there was the second rounds that did her in.

I also thought it a mistake Hood took Prinz Eugen under fire.

BTW... stickied! Good discussion!
 
My 2 cents worth:

Yo redriver6;


redriver6 said:
what if...the Hood and PoW instead of turning at extreme range to present their broadsides...what if they had continued to close the range at high speed firing only the forward guns.
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I don't think this would have made a great deal of a difference. I feel the RN made a huge tactical mistake in sending an "old man" (Hood - outdated protection) & a "green kid" (PoW - not yet fully "worked up" or her armament fully tested & calibrated) into harms way.

Consider:
1) Bismarck had very thick (contemporary) horizontal protection. As shown during the final confrontation with the RN; she was reduced to a floating junk pile from both horizontal & plunging rounds yet neither could sink her.

2) Both Bismarck & Prinz Eugen were carrying an unknown quantity of faulty shells (duds)


I realize that PoW was a 'green' ship and was having problems with her fancy new turrets but....she was the ship that put a hole in the Bismarck's bow causing a fuel leak..
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Armor plating in this area would have been very thin (if it existed at all) as it was not considered a "vital" area. Had PoW fired a split second later, the round may have hit a heavily plated area or upper works. I think it was a "lucky shot" at best but it did seal Bismarck's fate.


Summation:
Altering the tactics of this battle would have definitely changed the outcome as Hood would not have succumbed to the plunging round that killed her.

But on the other hand Hood's horizontal protection was circa 1920 .... Bismarck's plating was modern & her main battery was very high velocity AP. If Hood would have been closest to Bismarck I suspect she would have suffered extreme damage to her upper works & structure. (similar to Bismarck's fate)

Factor into this the RN's nasty habit of stacking shells & propellant bags in the turrets for ready use and all the ammo scuttles chocked open (for a sustained high rate of fire) most certainly would have led to her demise if just one of Bismarck's shells had penetrated a turret. This was a lesson not learned by the RN at Jutland & is exactly what was "wrong with our bloody ships today" as Beatty said.

Bismarck too would have sustained more damage which might have made her turn & run for home thus negating the whole chase.

The loss of Hood stunned the Admiralty & shocked the Brits; but how would both have reacted to the return of the "Pride of the Royal Navy" as a battered hulk? Just think of what pictures of her in every newspaper would have done to British morale in general. Knowing she was lost was a terrible thing ... but looking at her corpse I fear would have been far worse.

Sinking Hood did somewhat demoralize the Brit's (in the short term) however it did galvanize their spirit (and resolve) which directly led to Bismarck's destruction and the moral boost that the victory instilled.

Lastly:
Using your scenario: Hood most likely would have been lost but just later in the battle. Perhaps if PoW had been closer to the battle after Hood's demise; Prinz Eugen & Bismarck could have split her fire (ala "River Plate") & sunk her too. A HUGE victory for the KM & a catastrophe for the RN.

This victory & survival of Bismarck might have led Hitler to send Bismarck & Tirpitz out together .... with the RN spread so thinly ...... who knows what could have happened next?



BTW ..... don't get me started on Pearl Harbor!!! :argue:


redriver6 said:
Collin invited me to start a new thread
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Be careful .... Collin is the person your mother warned you about!

......View attachment 76396
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Hood was being targetted by a lot of guns and had to do something. A broadside would have given her a far better chance of knocking out some of those guns.

Best wishes
Steve P
 
Agree with Dirtman. With hindsight, it was almost a suicide mission taking into account the general practices in the RN at the time.

Both RN vessels could have done a lot of damage to Bismarck if they managed to get closer and concentrated on the larger vessel, but they would have been sinking wrecks themselves.
 
Could there have been a case for the Hood and P of W staying further back? I've read somewhere that the German battleships were outclassed by the British at long range.

Best wishes
Steve P
 
grumpos said:
Could there have been a case for the Hood and P of W staying further back? I've read somewhere that the German battleships were outclassed by the British at long range.

Best wishes
Steve P
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that is an intresting idea but apparently the weather was deteriorating and Holland didn't want the two German ships to escape into the mist again. The website for the Hood states that Holland wanted the Suffolk and Norfolk to engage the Prinz while the PoW and Hood took on the Bismarck...but a ban on radio usage prevented the heavy cruisers from getting the message.

Apparently the two British capital ships also left 4 destroyers behind because they couldn't keep up in the heavy seas.

A battleship, battlecruiser, 2 heavy cruisers and 4 destroyers..hmmm what if they could have concentrated their forces before attacking?

I tend to agree that result may not have been all that different if the range was decreased but still the chances for Hood's survival was slightly better with the shells coming in on a flatter trajectory.

i think they also should have put PoW out front..let her absorb some of the initial punishment while the Hood lurked behind waiting to charge forward...evidently the PoW was the lead ship earlier in the morning but switched places right before the battle.

ya know...at this point in the war Great Britain was standing ALONE against the Nazi onslaught, the RN was still powerfull but fading... i can only imagine what it must have been like for the Brits to learn of the loss of its most famous warship. i mean what if tomorrow i picked up the paper and read of the loss of the Abraham Lincoln with all hands except for a handful...devastating.

other than the two atomic bombs was there a greater loss of life in WW2 caused by one shot???

(btw...i don't think that Holland really had any other choice but to do exactly what he did)
 
I'd often wondered what would have happened if Norfolk and Suffolk had been brought into the fray.
 
Before we all make a decision, let me lay some facts on you.

Between the wars the Germans spent a great deal of time and effort on their gun sighting lenses and systems, far more then the Royal Navy did. Consequently, their firing was more accurate then the RN.

The guns on the Hood were antiquated in comparison to all the other ships taking part, she was out-ranged by all the ships present except for the Brit cruisers.

The Prinz Eugen was the first ship to open fire at over 36,000yds.

Holland ordered the Prince of Wales to turn its radar off as it was interfering with the Hood's radar, after the Hood's demise, PoW turned her radar back on and started to score hits before retreating under a smoke cloud.

Hood only fired one salvo (2 shells) at Prinz Eugen before checking her fire and switching to Bismarck.

It is believed that shells from Prinz Eugen started the fire in the ready use lockers of the UP's and 4" which spread sternwards and down, the loss report states that the committee believes that a 15" shell then penetrated to the aft 4" and 15" magazines and caused the detonation of them.
There is another school of thought that the fire raging topside managed to get down the to the 4" magazine which detonated and took the 15" one with it.

Both British ships were having to steam head on into gale force sea's which ruined the optics of the gun laying system on board PoW with spray.

Holland had to get closer just to get the Hood into range (PoW outranged her by 8000yds) and also knew the risk of plunging fire.

PoW was 4-5 cables off Hood's starboard quarter and ran the risk of being hit by "overs" from the German ships. In fact several shots came close enough to her to shower her decks with shrapnel.

Regrettably, .zip files are not permitted within the thread or I could have posted the Admiralty Report.

A plan is the British plan from the Admiralty report.

B plan is the German plan of the battle.

regards Collin:ernae:
 
Does anyone know if it was by accident or preplanned that the German ships concentrated their fire on the Hood?

I can understand Hood mistakenly firing on Prinz Eugen because of the PE's appearance is so like the Bismarck's, but the 2 British ships are no way similar.

regards Collin:ernae:
 
personally i think it was more by 'accident' if you want to call it that or just because Hood was in the lead..thats why i wonder what the deal was with the PoW taking the lead earlier in the morning then switching places with Hood so the Hood could resume the lead.

Apparently the Germans didn't realize they were up against two heavy units until after the engagement began!!

The Prinz was in the lead for the Germans because the concussion from Bismarck's 15" guns disabled her radar!? when she fired at the Norfolk the day before.
 
this is something i found in a publication i have had for several years:

Warship Profile 19
HMS Hood/Battle-cruiser 1916-1941
by R.G. Robertson, CA

Page 162
If the 'Hood' encounters the 'Bismarck'
On 20 April Admiral Whitworth made known his intentions if an 'enemy in sight' report was recieved: the Hood would close the enemy at so as to bring her guns within effective range. If possible the approach would be 'end-on' so as to present the minimum target. (The weakness of the Hood's deck armour made it imperative that any action be fought at as close a range as possible. The closer the range the flatter the trajectory of the shell and the less likely it would be to penetrate through her decks and reach the magazines.)

note- Adm. Whitworth left the Hood on May 8 and was replaced by Vadm. Holland on May 12.
 
here is a couple of scans from a book i have that shows the armor thickness in mm for the Hood and Bismarck...i guess it is easy to see where a heavy shell could get through on the Hood...although the armor isn't incredibly weak like one would think...in fact its thicker in places than the Bismarck..
 
Hoods deck armour was good enough to defeat 8" shell from heavy cruisers, but the weakness was exasperated at this time by the amount of secondary and UP ammunition stored in the ready use lockers.

Another thought?

What might have happened if she meet with one of the German battlecruisers with 11" guns is a ponderable.
She had the speed to catch them and if fought wisely would have stood off to pound them/it.

Most armour plate used by the world navies by this time was of similar strength, it was the way that it was fitted that made the difference.

Of course the stern was the Achilles Heal of all ships (as many found out the hard way).

regards Collin:ernae:
 
An interesting footnote on history, the day before the battle, the Captain of the Hood and some of his officers climbed a mountain on the Isle of Skye, and left a handwritten note in the Cairn at the peak...the note was still there in the 1970's when i was in UK for university...

he said something to the effect that this was the most beautiful view he had ever seen, the view across the sea to the outer hebredies....

it was certainly one of the last views he had... a poignant tiny piece of history.
 
Eh??

If it was the day before the battle, whats the Captain doing on a mountain top with some of his officers when his ship has been at sea on a war footing, for two days?

Collin
 
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