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Ice Pilots

Terry

SOH-CM-2016
Did anyone watching this show last night hear Joe and the announcer talking about AvGas becoming obsolete. This is one reason Joe has to switch to turboprops. Sounds like something the Feds have their nose in just like the unleaded fuel way back when. Guess this means if down the road you can't afford a turbo GA you stay on the ground.

Another astonishing statement was that one Electra prop costs as much as a DC-3! I believe they said over $300k.
 
I saw that and picked my jaw up off the floor when they mantioned about the Electra prop. Dang! I also wonder if there are any P-3 maintenance types out there watching this show. I wonder if they are shocked at the maintenance practices on the Electras. I suppose you do what you have to do up there in the wilderness...

- Paul
 
Did anyone watching this show last night hear Joe and the announcer talking about AvGas becoming obsolete. This is one reason Joe has to switch to turboprops. Sounds like something the Feds have their nose in just like the unleaded fuel way back when. Guess this means if down the road you can't afford a turbo GA you stay on the ground. Another astonishing statement was that one Electra prop costs as much as a DC-3! I believe they said over $300k.

Terry, The AOPA and other flight organizations dedicated to General Aviation are working very hard to make sure they will always be AvGas avialable.

RD
 
[h=1]EAA Aviation Fuels and Auto Fuel STC Information[/h]




EAA began testing and evaluating alternate fuels for aircraft piston engines in 1964. These included not only automobile gasoline, but also ethanol. In 1982, EAA successfully changed FAA policy to consider the use of automobile gasoline in aircraft. The EAA type certificate program resulted in an FAA Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) being issued for the use of automobile gasoline, rather than aviation gasoline, in the Cessna 150 aircraft, powered by a Continental O-200 engine. The first pilot to legally fly in an aircraft with automobile gasoline was, then FAA Administrator, Lynn Helms. Since then, more than 24,000 STC’s have been issued by the EAA.

Then there is this.......


[h=3]Beware oxygenated fuel in planes burning auto gas[/h] By AOPA ePublishing staff
If you have received a supplemental type certificate (STC) to operate your airplane using auto gas in addition to avgas, you need to be aware of the potential hazards posed by “oxygenated” fuel.
“Usually when fuel is labeled ‘oxygenated,’ it means the gas is blended with ethanol,” explained Craig Brown of AOPA’s Pilot Information Center. Ethanol-blended fuel can damage fuel cells, O-rings, gaskets, and other rubber parts. It can also absorb water, leading to corrosion or forming ice crystals that obstruct the fuel system. Water absorbed by the fuel cannot be detected by sumping the tanks.
Many states now require the blending of ethanol in gasoline, but not all blended auto gas is labeled, so you can’t rely on information provided at the pump. Simple procedures and test kits are available to test fuel for the presence of ethanol
.
I have burned Auto Gas in both my C-150,and the PA-28 140B for many years... As Engines designed for 80/87 can use 100LL with special precautions. With care ,I found no problems,with Auto Gas!..
 
I do not know terry...I do know WW2 bombers,Big Redials, without the fuel of that time, now can run on 100 ll...Without the lead there may be differences in all engines and with the introduction of Ethanol! If you find out? why let us know!...As far as no more Currant AVGAS?...I doubt it...General Aviation is too big of a factor.Altho Cessna has Diesel engines now...Internal combustion? Fossil l Fuels?..will be with us for a long time....unless you want a windmill engine....<label for="rb_iconid_19">
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The only alternate fuel that would be cost effective is hydrogen and the gov will never allow that. My problem is I hate to see the end of the big radials in a commercial venue.
 
Yes Terry Me Too!....The very soul of Aviation,the big,Loud,belching fire ,oil smelling ,Gas burning Machines which served us and the world well....Now only at Air Shows..and when one of them starts up??? All Stop,Look,and Listen...They are gone like the Great Steam Locomotives......Progress my Friend!!
 
There is some pressure to get rid of 100LL due to the lead content. Now, we all know that there is so little 100LL burned nowadays that this is really rather ridiculous. However, that's also one of the problems with 100LL, there's just not enough consumed to justify brewing it up in a manner that allows you to make a buck.

That's why petroleum companies exist you know....to make a buck?

Want to ensure we keep a steady supply of 100LL? Consume more.
 
I remember reading somewhere, that alternative grades of fuel were being tested for suitability to use on the older radial piston engine aircraft and there was some promise in a certain grade of gas which showed that it will not damage the engine and give about the same or better engine performance than the older grade of av gas.
 
So we wait and see what happens to Buffalo, they will either find fuel, switch to turbos, or shut down.
 
My instructors from A&P school might be disappointed to learn how little I remember of their lessons on this subject (some 30+ years ago), but I seem to recall that avgas differed from autogas in something called "vapor pressure". Something to do with making avgas more stable at high altitudes. I think that aircraft STC'd for autogas are altitude restricted while using autogas. Anyone know what the heck I'm talking about?
 
maybe time to adopt the same sort of method used for cruise ships .. having an onboard filter system that liquifys the sludge in the holding tank to burnable fuel?
 
although i don't remember which ones, i do remember reading about some bush plane that was designed to burn whatever you put in the tank, as long as it was flammable. he mentioned auto gas, diesel, kerosene, and perfume.
 
A diesel will essentially do that. Burns almost anything. But as with anything there are tradeoffs. While a diesel engine delivers greater efficiency and overall power, it does so at greater weight, and less responsiveness. If all you're doing is measuring an engines efficiency, then diesels make a lot of sense....but if what you're really trying to do is fly things somewhere, then you have to subtract the impact of the additional weight. Oddly enough diesel's have been used by aircraft since before WWII (Jumo made a notable model), but a more distilled product such as AVGAS delivered better OVERALL mission efficiency (I stress the word overall. That changes when the cost of fuel goes through the roof, or it's just not available). Diesel also freezes. Yes, I've been stuck in Afghanistan with frozen diesel. There is however a renewed interest in Diesel airplane engines, and I think we're going to see a bit of a resurgence.

Jets and Turboprops essentially run on Kerosene (a turboprop is really a jet engine, done up a bit differently), but they need a LOT of Kerosene. I think you've heard Buffalo Joe bitch about that on the program. In his environment, that Kerosene becomes expensive since it's got to be moved, stored, and immediately available at many locations.....not such an easy thing in some places in the world, just like having AVGAS in some places of the world is no longer an easy thing.

AVGAS is still an exceptionally efficient fuel for overall usage, but it's becoming too expensive to produce for Oil Companies if it moves in such small quantities....hence my reference to increasing use meaning more availability and and less cost.

One observation, the petroleum industry is the most regulated industry in the world. Most of the cost of fuel has absolutely nothing to do with the cost of it's acquisition and refinement. Add to this the fact that we knowingly limit access to supply, as well as legislate it's distribution (for better or worse). It is also a commodity, so it's availability makes it a "futures" market, (just like orange juice and pork bellies) and like other futures is subject to speculation. Don't knock speculation, without it the capital isn't produced to develop markets....however, the point is there's no such thing as a free market system when it comes to fuel. If there were, it would be far more available at a cheaper price.

I would add that here in Tampa we had an event to protest consideration of off-shore drilling. One of the organizers made the comment that he was disappointed with the turn out. Another person made the observation that probably the sudden increase in the cost of gas made it cost too much to allow folks to come to the protest.


We drown in the irony.
 
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