I'm finally back here

2000 km/sec? That is really fast, Johnny. In fact, it's about 270 times faster than the space shuttle in orbit. I guess the main limitations are the availability of a propellent that strong, the pressure a barrel could endure during acceleration of the projectile, the friction generated during acceleration (it would no doubt melt both barrel and bullet at that speed) and the aerodynamic drag (at that speed it would be more than if the bullet hit a planet made of pure diamond.)
Thanks for the link to the amusing science toys. Did you know that the Japanese actually did try to make a microwave gun in World War II? It was unsuccessful because it loses too much power quickly, but it shows how ingenious they were.
I never saw a vapor trail on a bullet. That must be fascinating. Obviously my eyes are nowhere near as good as yours. I just keep the prescription up to the level for me to pass my Class III flight physical every other year.
Thanks and have a good day. :naturesm:

~S~ All,

EOD I think = ATO, not sure anymore.

I am told that there are speed limits that cannot be exceeded. The speed limit for muzzle velocity for firearms is said to be 2,000 km a second. That would be 6561679.790026247 feet per second. I am not sure what could fire a projectile at that speed, but I want one. I really have no idea what could stop that.

When I was young I could shoot birds out of the sky with a BB gun. Later it was targets at 1,000 yards without telescopic sites, using a M-14, 7.62 NATO round. You could fire the round and look through your spotter scope and see the vapor trail as the hot bullet moved through the cool air and into the target. That seamed to be a long time, but was probably 2 seconds +/-.

j:cost1:
 
Flight physical.

~S~ G,

No more flight physicals for me. I am glad CFS does not require one. Class three, let me guess: Jets?

Before my wife bought the big screen, I needed three pairs of glasses for the computer. My next appointment for glass is next month.

As for speed: Earth's escape velocity is 11 km/s. Proof that Earth sucks.

Good luck,

j:cost1:
 
Hello Gwynedd,

The measurement of Joules per mm^2 seems to me to be an incomplete picture / summary of the penetrating ability of a projectile. If one takes it to the extreme, a buffalo rifle with a fairly large cross section would seem much more dangerous than a smaller projectile with the same energy per cross section. This is why I wonder if a 7.62 mm pistol bullet can adequately simulate the penetration of a 9 mm bullet. I figure similar bullet construction and diameter, similar velocity should yield similar results.

Also, What bullet weights are being used for the 7.62 x 54R and 7.92 x 57? The higher bullet weights in both would seem to me to be more dangerous. With the 7.92, I have seen 153 grain concave base bullets from China and 196 grain boat tail bullets from Portugal. There is a radical difference in retained energy between those two bullets. Consider also that a rotorcraft will most likely attract small arms fire from 100 to 500 yards away, so retained energy is important. If someone is taking pot shots at you from 10 feet away, you have more problems than armour is going to solve.
:kilroy:

Hi Johnny,

I also usta shoot high power. You can see these bullet traces even at short distances such as 200 yards without optics. It helps to be directly behind the shooter on a very humid day. A spotting scope helps too. My experiences spotting these traces has been with M1 Garands using standard M2 Ball. (Not that different from a M14.) I AM extremely familiar with the operation of the civilian equivalents to the M14 though.
:icon_lol:

I believe the actual limiting velocity of a "FIREarm" using some kind of chemical propellant is more on the order of 20,000 fps because the expanding gas from the propellant doesn't go any faster. I need to check my sources on this one though. Do you still play with the high power rifles? That could be an interesting discussion.

Later.
- Ivan.
 
Gwynedd, thanks for the website. Looks fascinating & I've passed it on for comment. My friend most likely won't look at it because 1) it's too expensive and as a producer he wants to keep costs down, 2) cannot make it large enough for car windscreens, 3) probably cannot be made easily, 4) being more durable, he loses maintainance and rebuild work! He told me that the existing stuff has a usable life of about 1 year as the windscreens delaminate from the sunlight and the cars are worn out from the weight of all the additional armour. Good for a producer.

I was also curious about your energy figures for the different rounds and was going to look at how penetration figures are calculated. I don't normally worry about thing like that as I am a precision shooter and not a hunter. But for Practical Pistol they measure the power factor using the velocity x the weight (but not velocity squared!). Our UK ranges have just been limited by muzzle velocity using momentum (mass x velocity) which acts against blackpowder. According to our Government a .577 black powder rifle is more powerful than a modern 5.56 or 7.62 round!

My penetration queries were started last time I was testing the bullet-resistant glass. My friend had also filled some beakers with his polymer compound, a different beaker for each type he was testing. Without the glass in front we didn't know how far any bullet would penetrate but the best polymer is the one with the least penetration. I was using .357 magnum through a carbine and they all showed less than an inch penetration. I hoped to try more pointy bullets but as we have a poor selection here (if you believe that UK is bad you should try Belfast!) and tried some 124g 9mm heads as they are the pointiest I can find. I have now discovered that 0.001" difference in bore diameter has a great difference on accuracy!
 
Hi Dave,

I guess what your ranges and the IPSC base things on is momentum. Not unreasonable when calculating hitting power of pistols but a little strange when one is trying to calculate how far things will go. If you really want to get an idea how far things fly, I believe Julian Hatcher covered things pretty well (at US Government expense) in "Hatcher's Notebook".

.577-450 Martini-Henry, right?

If you were trying to get some nicely penetrating .357 bullets, I would go with some hard cast conical bullets perhaps out of wheel weights. That must be some pretty amazing stuff to stop a .357 Magnum carbine round in less than an inch of penetration. We had a fellow at one of our ranges display a laminated Kevlar sheet with various handgun bullets embedded in it. The caliber I remembered from that exhibit was the M1 Carbine (110 grain .30 cal bullet at 1980 fps) because it went clean through!

I believe our interests for firearms accuracy are pretty similar. Energy isn't particularly important, but velocity and consistency in instrumental velocity are quite important to predict potential accuracy and trajectories of various ammunition. For a while, I tended to chronograph just about everything I handloaded and quite a lot of factory ammunition as well. It revealed a lot about claims versus reality.

- Ivan.
 
Hi, guys. I will get back to all of you on these questions as soon as I can. I just got in (midnight) from a presentation in Atlanta. I have 15 exams to collect and grade tomorrow and 2 new armor patterns to lay out and assign for assembly to my girls before I can come home tomorrow night and take a breather. I think a glass of red wine will be in order before I start on this, if you don't mind.
 
Answers

~S~ All,

I think G's weapon should a Black Powder rifle. They are cheep enough and I think use many different projectiles and the power can be regulated.

Ivan, I was doing a little sighting for people before hunting season, but when you put three rounds in the same hole and they can't, it ticks them off and blame you for not doing it right. I use to shoot NRA National Match and my favorite place was "The Thousand Yard Line at Oak Ridge, Tennessee." That was always done on Sundays. The best I did was a 95. Ten shots, a ten and a five ring. I do not recall the X count. We used peep sights and the winners used Telescopic sights, with the x count determines the winner. Every time we shot it we would receive a silver pin with the "Le Grand Carbine" on it.

My long weapon of choice is the Marlin SS 22 mag. with a nylon stock. Hand gun 9mm S&W 659. In the afternoon I am going to look at another one in blue steal. Best weapon I ever owned was a H&K 93, but it was to heavy. It went in Katrina, with a lot of other stuff. A friend had a S&W 40 that I saved for him. After Katrina it was junk, but a year later no one could tell. He gave me a .380 that no one could cock and as such was never fired. I managed to fire it once and the shell casein jammed it. I shortened the spring a little. It cocked a little easier, but still caught the shell casein. If I get the chance I will take a little more off of it then turn it into a Pocket Pistol Competition Special.

Dave, I have shot at people in cars and I have seen what a lot of others have done. It is almost imposable to penetrate a wind screen, because of the angle at which it strikes. Anything around 45 degrees or less the bullet strikes and continues up or down the glass. I went on the Screen of a drive-by where the perpetrator pulled up next to the victims car, and shot him through the front passenger side glass. The perpetrator drove off and the victim was carried into the house. 911 was called and EMS could not find anything but a red spot on the right side of his chest. The perpetrator used a snub-nose .38 and the glass slowed the bullet town enough that it did not penetrate the victims shirt.

Well enough war stories,

Time to Sleep, per chance to dream.

J.:isadizzy:
 
Hi Johnny,

The problem with a black powder rifle is that the velocity is so limited as is the diameter of bullets. I don't believe I have ever seen a black powder rifle smaller than a .40 caliber or with a claimed velocity over about 2200 fps. Besides, if you reload, just about ANYTHING can be tuned down. I once did an experiment with loading each round with .3 grain more powder than the last (based on an article by Creighton Audette) with velocities in the 2200 fps range out to about 2600 fps. The shot pattern (and I really can't call it a group) was quite interesting to observe. Each round's impact was noted and all velocities were chronographed.

On occasion, I usta do the same for people at the range but mostly with handguns. I don't believe I ever had anyone get upset that their gun was shooting better than they were. Then again, THEY were the ones coming to ask me to check out their gun.

As for high power shooters, I believe they are an interesting bunch. I have had MANY folks show off targets to me that had about 40 or 50 holes in a 6 to 8 inch diameter circle that were making claims as to how one could discern a tendency or pattern to the shots. I have had folks shooting M1As show me targets with about a 3 inch group tell me how their rifle was shooting sub-MOA but they had just pulled a couple shots.
I figured out a long time ago that at least for me, serious accuracy testing with a high power rifle required a scope. FWIW, I was scoring 93's in sitting and prone rapid fire at 200 yards with a gun that later proved to be capable of only 3.5 inch groups at 100 yards, but that was a LONG time ago. (Iron sighted rack grade M1 Garand with Vietnam era Lake City M2 Ball.)

A S&W 659? I shot one about a month ago along with a few other assorted toys. This pistol impressed me as being pretty well made, but extraordinarily heavy. Know where to get magazines for them? I would love to get a S&W 639 if I could find one. I prefer Stainless and the 39's seem to fit my hand better. All the H&K / CETME rifles impress me as being a bit chunky and heavy, but quite good designs. I have fired a HK 91 quite a lot but never owned one. Only tried out the HK 93 a couple of times and can't remember much about it. I wish they had longer barrels to cut down on the muzzle blast and to increase velocities.

- Ivan.
 
Shot groups

~S~ Ivan,

I had matched the highest score ever shot with every light weapon the Army had at that time, except the M1. The one I had was a hunk of junk. I received a Sharpshooter medal for that and expert for everything else. When I was on the rifle team, we did all of our own work on the weapons. We had national match M14's and one day a week we would go to the range with 1,000 rounds of National Match ammo from Lake City. There was usually a Match somewhere every month and we went. Shot groups were usually just that, groups. At 500 yards they were the size of a half dollar. The count was in X-rings. If you were going to screw-up it would be at the 500 yard line. Almost everyone scored a perfect score, I did see a three way tie once. They all had all X's and had a shoot off. T am sure the gut who won was Blankenship, and I think his first name was Paul, but we are talking 40+ years ago.

When I signed up, it was to be a telephone lineman in New Orleans. In basic this guy from the 101st came a talked to us and I signed up to be Airborne. I figured I would be an airborne telephone lineman in New Orleans. Wrong. I became Airborne Unassigned and I belonged to them. I never had to volunteer for anything again.

When I was with the 82nd, my Platoon Sgt. came in and Said I was going to be the new Operations Clark and I was sent to typing school. It was the worst job I have ever had, but I found out that clerks run the army. You take a thirty day leave and when you get back you still have thirty days on the books. Some guy gave me problems and he received orders for Germany. He came to me and I had it changed, but his pay still went to Germany. Non of this was any of my doing, clerks look out for each other and make rank faster then anyone else. So I arranged to be sent to a Pathfinder Unit attacked to the 31st Infantry at Ft. Rucker, Alabama. There was a waiting list and to kill time I started hanging out at the indoor range and the rest is history.

You now when you type 120 words a minute, the Army sends you where you are needed. I was assigned to the 11th Air Assault which became the 1st Calvary and then sent to Vietnam as a snipper.

My DD-214 states I was a Radio Telephone Operator.

Well later,

J.:isadizzy:
 
Hello Johnny,

The accuracy you were getting from M14s is pretty spectacular. If we figure that a Half dollar is about 1.25 inches in diameter, you would be holding 1/4 MOA out to 500 yards. My results have been much less impressive: about 5/8 to 3/4 MOA for 5 shots, and about 3/4 MOA to 1 MOA for 10 shots. Best reloads have been with 168 grain bullets seated to 2.82-2.83 inch OAL with IMR 4064, Winchester 748, or IMR 4895 to achieve 2575 to about 2625 fps instrumental at about 7 feet from the muzzle. I tie a string to the chronograph and use it to measure out distance to the shooting bench when I am setting it up. Because I usta chronograph from the same shooting ranges, I also put little lines of nail polish on the camera tripod to make the height consistent.

I have never had much luck with the military M118 173 grain bullets. The M852 "Not for Combat Use" stuff with the 168 grain bullet does just a slight bit worse than my handloads, but Federal .308 Match does slightly better.

I wouldn't mind discussing what was done to your M14s to make them shoot so well, but it seems beyond the scope of a public discussion.

- Ivan.
 
Weapons

~S~ Ivan,

It was over 40 years ago, 1964-65, as I recall it went like this:

When we received a new set of weapons the numbers were sequential ending in ---00001 up. The hole in the peep sight was about half the size of a normal one and the clicks were in half clicks The first thing that we did was take it apart and clean it. Every where the weapon touched the stock we hollowed out the stock, using a drill, down about a quarter inch. So it looked like a trench around the edge of the stock. We filled the holes with fiberglass and put the weapon back together and let the fiberglass harden. They would probably use epoxy today. Where the hand guard met the support strips of inner tube were place. After that the weapon was finished, it was never really cleaned, just wiped down and lightly oiled and a patch run down the barrel, after each use. The next year you were issued another one and would have to do it again.

The hard part was recording every shot in your log book. During matches that was done by the spotters or you could use your target.

Windage was done by dropping some grass from your shoulder. I was told by the guys from Panama they use rocks.

Later,

j
 
Long-Winded Post

Hi Johnny,

I was figuring it was a bit more elaborate than that. The process has gotten a bit more refined now from my experience. Instead of fibreglas, some folks use Marine-tex. I prefer Brownell's Acraglas-Steel. It is an epoxy filled with very finely ground stainless steel. I have thought about Devcon Titanium filled epoxy, but not used it yet. The problem is that final processing requires some grinding of the stuff that overflows and Titanium eats normal steel cutters.

Glass bedding for this gun happens in a multi step process. I believe the 5 pillar bedding process developed by Mr. Reid Coffield of Brownells is the best idea but have not used it yet. It basically involves drilling tunnels between the upper bedding areas and the lower through the stock side walls and from the rear horseshoe down to the rear of the trigger assembly and filling with the bedding material. The idea is that wood compresses and bedding material doesn't, so put pillars to take up the compression force.

The stock liner is relieved to allow the legs of the receiver to sit enclosed by bedding material rather than hit the stock liner. Some folks remove the stock liner entirely which I believe is a bad idea because the magazine well then doesn't have a nice steel liner to prevent accidentally chewing up the stock from below.

The Gas system is unitized with the front band and the stock ferrule is polished. The USAMTU process was to anneal the gas cylinder and band and drill through the spindle and cylinder from the back and hold everything in place with a couple hex screws from the back. I have also seen the parts brazed together and tack welded together. I prefer the last two because they leave the gas-cutoff functional. The brazing looks better IMHO. I have also shot guns that did NOT have the gas system modified and did not shoot noticeably worse.

The spring guide is modified either by welding a rod to replace the stamped part that the spring coils over or these days by a piece from Brookfield Precision Tool. The idea is to have a spring guide that is a larger diameter and round so that the spring does not kink up.

The whole gas system is then assembled and gas cylinder lock is then adjusted so that it bottoms out on the threads at 6 o'clock. Shims are used between the barrel shoulder and the gas cylinder to adjust where the lock bottoms out.

The flash suppressor is reamed with a taper so that rain gathering at the bottom will not touch a departing bullet. I have a different idea as to how this should be done, but haven't found anyone to do the machining and welding to test out my theory.

Handguard is held off the barrel with a small rubber washer or piece under the clip. The front of the handguard may be epoxied to the front band. The handguard should NOT touch the barrel or stock in any way. On M14 Heavy barrels, it may be necessary to grind off the underside of the ridges on the handguard to clear the front of the barrel. On standard weight barrel (why would we use these on a target gun???), there will be clearance. On a medium weight barrel, there should also be plenty of clearance.

After initial assembly, there is another adjustment I found in a Marine Corps manual which seems to improve things. The operating rod should bottom out against the gas piston. There will be a small distance (about 3/32 inch) from where the op rod stops and the roller on the bolt. Test this by unscrewing the gas plug. With a .308 Go gauge in the chamber (to substitute for a max size round) check contact distance between op rod and bolt roller. Cut the back of the gas piston until the gas plug only pushes the op rod about 1/32 or less off the back of the bolt roller. This increases the time between when the op rod starts moving and when the bolt starts to unlock. Details regarding testing are too elaborate to describe here.

Unless this is a stainless barrel, you might want to mask off the barrel (without gas cylinder in place) and spray paint the bottom of it with silver engine paint or some heat resistant paint. The idea is to prevent rust from gas fouling from the back side of the gas cylinder. Silver shows up fouling pretty well for those complete disassembly and cleanings.

There are two sizes of NM rear sight aperture. .0520 and .0595. My preference is for the 0.0520. These sights have a notch on the back which indicates the direction of adjustment. Rotating the hood so that the notch goes from top to bottom would lower the sight by 1/2 MOA. The military uses a sight base with finer threads to allow 1/2 MOA adjustments per click. I think these bases have "NM 2/A" markings or something similar. Some commercial manufacturers grind off the detents on the windage knob and put a small cavity in the right side of the receiver under the sight for a spring and ball bearing to index on the notches the cut into the back side of the windage knob. IMHO either one works well enough. Some folks like to cut the lower part of the aperture so that when elevated high enough, the entire aperture comes out of the gun. This is to allow for aperture changes on the range without having to disassemble the entire rear sight. I prefer not to do this.

That's pretty much the process as I remember it. There are a quite a lot of notes on alignment, clearances and checks left out. BTW, for those who might want to actually try this, I accept no responsibility for anything YOU blow up! This is intended as a "War Story". Treat it as such!

- Ivan.

P.S. Remember to cut or grind on the cheaper replaceable part!
 
"cut or grind on the cheaper replaceable part"

~S~ Ivan,

I think that could have been said a little bit different.

Polishing the surfaces of lesser quality parts will not only save money, but insure you of a better operating system.

:bs:
J.
 
Hey Johnny,

Not quite sure what you are disagreeing with. All I am saying is when given a choice of cutting on a replaceable part or a non-replaceable part such as the receiver, cut on the replaceable part. There are a few exceptions to this rule such as fitting a bolt to the receiver. The bolts are hardened so you really don't have much of a choice. With other parts such as clip guides, bolt stops, trigger housings, etc., the part is cut to match the receiver.

I have seen Armscorp receivers that could not take a GI Op rod in the side rail. The right way to fix things here would have been to re-cut the op rod rail. The cheap way was to cut the tab on the op rod so that it would fit into the rail. I have seen an Armscorp receiver that would not take a S&K scope mount because the notches and rails for the scope mount were in the wrong place. (Just hate it whennat happens!)

I have seen a Federal Ordnance receiver that did not have the two receiver holes for the rear sight on the same axis. Another receiver had one receiver lug machined so far back that it could not contact the bolt lug on that side. With that rifle, I used Post-It notes to "bed" the receiver into the stock. Without a pair of scissors to trim the Post-Its, the rifle looked pretty goofy with torn up yellow paper sticking out in various places, but the accuracy improved from 4 inch groups at 100 yards to 1.5 inches at 100 yards. The owner of the rifle told me months later that he never moved the Post-Its but trimmed off the pieces that stuck out!

Johnny, to some extent you are correct that polishing a lesser quality part will do as well, but the problem here is that with the lesser quality part that is generally softer, the precise fit may not last as long. Next time you handle a M14 / M1A, look at the rear of the spring guide that fits into the notch on magazines. Most I have seen show obvious wear from magazines being inserted. This is what happens when you use the original GI spring guide even if you weld a round rod to the front to make a better guide. With a Brookfield guide rod, you spend $25 or $30 for the part, but it doesn't require labor for cutting and welding and is a hardened part.

FWIW, the first rifle I "glass-bedded" was done with a material called Micro-bed. It worked but the bedding had small voids (bubbles) in various places. Still, the bedding job with this poor material and workmanship lasted almost 15 years before needing to be redone.

These days, the price of good quality parts and materials isn't very high when compared to the amount of free time I have to do the work.

- Ivan.
 
"Time is money, look in the clock."

~S~ Ivan,

Actually, when I wrote that I was thinking about the a firing pin that I need to check. Not that it gives any problems, but I was told that it could. They are known to have slag and burs on them. Cheep gun, but that makes it fun to play with. I saw what others have done with the same pistol on the Internet. It is a Jennings and sells for $35.00 FFL price, $150.00 to $175.00 range to us. There is a dealer near by that said he would charge $35.00 to receive anything I ordered and paid for. I am not sure what he meant. My wife thought if I found it somewhere I could pay him for it + $35.00 and he would order it for me.

I have about twenty projects going, counting the CFS Dam. Looks OK but can not get to sit on the ground level. The AF99 Flight Dynamics Editor can not find CFS. Padlock view is at ground level and that puts you in a valley between two other dam sections. Almost finish My hydrogen generator for the truck, but with gas under two bucks, the incentive has lessened. Want to start working on a super coil gun. Have ten shelving units to be put together and do not have any place to put them. Plus things I do not want to think of.

Well we fly and die tomorrow, you could stop by and give smilo and Hubbabubba heath attacks. :costumes:

Later,

j
 
Hello Johnny,

I am actually quite familiar with a Jennings J-22. I have messed with a couple on various ranges. The general problem I have seen with those is that the recoil spring tends to be a bit on the heavy side and sometimes (usually) the guns don't function with standard velocity .22 LR ammunition. High Velocity stuff seems to work most of the time if the guns work at all. I have seen guns which were dry fired a bit and the firing pin will raise a little ridge on the upper side of the chamber and also screw up the bolt face. The bolt face part is hard to fix because the slides (and frame) are zinc alloy (pot metal). The chamber wasn't hard to "fix". Just take a pocket knife and cut off the ridge! The metal is THAT soft!

Personally I don't like to mess with stuff made of zinc alloys. You can "fix" things, but they don't stay fixed because the parts wear so badly. I have a couple gun projects which are on-going because I can't find the parts. I have some where I have the parts but am too lazy to actually start because I KNOW they will be very high labor. I have a very nice .22 pistol that has a worn out firing pin. (15,000 rounds will do that!) I have a spare, but it needs to be fit to the gun and THAT isn't all that easy. That .22 pistol would put 10 rounds of Target .22s into a 3/4 inch group at 25 yards. High Velocity stuff went into 1 inch groups if the ammunition was any good. I SHOULD fit an extended ejector to my wife's pistol so that ejected cases are thrown a bit further. There is one pistol that I messed around with the recoil spring assembly but have not test fired to make sure it still functions reliably....

Regarding CFS projects, I have about 15 incomplete ones at the moment. I figure I have publicly released less than half of the projects I have started and just about all the releases I have done have had major updates since release. Why are you doing a CFS Dam? What kind of AIR file is a Dam sposta have? How does one fly a Dam?

I believe I finally finished the AIR file for my B-25C Mitchell. The model still needs tweaked a bit with a signature like the one you have in your AA tank and the textures need to be finished.

Partial summary of the flight test results (from memory) for the B-25C are the following:
267 mph at sea level
313 mph at 12500 feet
224 mph at 27500 feet
1700 fpm initial climb rate
1885 fpm maximum climb rate at 10,000 feet
best climb speed is 210 - 215 mph which seems a bit too high
service ceiling (100 fpm) is 27200 feet
absolute ceiling with 475 gallons fuel and no bombs is almost exactly 28000 feet.
2 notches of flaps should be used for take-off. I was able to get the plane off a rather short runway with 10 x 500 pound bombs and a full load (670 gallons) of fuel.
Fuel consumption is about 20% too high
Longitudinal trim is slight nose down with a 5000 pound bomb load and slight nose up with no bomb load.
I don't know that all the specs are an exact match for the real plane, but these numbers seem more or less reasonable to me except for the fuel consumption.

- Ivan.
 
Dam Air

~S~ Ivan,

My Jennings is a .380, and I have to shorten the recoil spring a little more and the rest is just cosmetics.

A dam has a regular .air file like everything else. "How does one fly a Dam?" There are just to many answerer for that. Not worth a dam, like a brick.... The dam is places with slew, and the flight saved. Mostly it is a ground target that shoots back.

A partial summary of the flight test results (from memory) for the Dam are the following:

0 mph at sea level
0 mph at 12500 feet
0 mph at 27500 feet
0 fpm initial climb rate
0 fpm maximum climb rate at 10,000 feet
best climb speed is none
service ceiling goes where you put it.

You would think with numbers like that it would be easy, but it is worst them an aircraft.

Well, I think it is time to hunt down the AAC.

Later,

j
 
Dave,
Those are good points for a consumer goods production company. US Air Force and RAF budgets are likely big enough to allow for that product, but not budgets of professors, industrial managers or bank tellers.
Okay the rest of this is going to be long and it pertains to this and other questions. Sorry about that.
The UK method of calculating bullet strength is its momentum (mass x velocity). That makes no sense to me because a human on a bicycle riding at 20 km/hr would be considered more dangerous than a 9 mm pistol round. (For the sake of example, the human and bike might be 75 kg x 20,000/3600 m/sec = 417 kg-m/sec; the 9 mm bullet might be 8/1000 kg x 400 m/sec = 320 kg-m/sec. Therefore the bicyclist is 30% deadlier than a 9 mm pistol?
Newton's actual definition is that momentum (mv) = impulse (Force x time), so the faster a bullet transfers its momentum, the more force is transferred into a collision.
By the same principle, Energy and Work are the same quantities in Newtonian physics. Energy is the equation I used earlier (Newtonian E = 1/2 mv^2, from which Einstein eventually derived E = mc^2 because light is the ultimate speed and there is no dissipation of the energy at that velocity, thus eliminating the factor of 1/2).
Now Work is a definition of energy given in Newton's physics as Force x time, so the force of Impulse you saw above must be totally absorbed in a limited distance and that distance is the time to stop the impact velocity. To find the distance, we can put the maximum allowed distance as the upper boundary condition and 0 as the lower condition. In Germany the upper boundary is 22 mm deep. In the USA it is 44 mm. (Because we are fatter? Or American women have bigger boobs? I don't know why.)
But the end result is that we know the conglomerate structure must absorb the energy of the bullet in 0.0044 meters maximum travel or the armor is a failure. This means the very minimum strength to break of the structure is defined as [(bullet mass x bullet velocity^2)/(2 x 0.0044 m)]. But we have another problem to consider. The foregoing model only takes into account Work to break along the perpendicular to the plane of the armor. We also need to consider breaking strain, and that is a function of the speed with which a force moves along a material, and that is again a function of the momentum (above), which also defines inertia. Breaking strain is defined as (length at break - original length)/original length. So let's say that a bullet hits a Kevlar filament yarn. A good representative breaking strain for this Kevlar is .034, so it has to stretch to 1.034 times its original length before it breaks. This becomes a function of how fast it will stretch that far to determine if it breaks before the .0044m limit is exceeded. So if that 9mm bullet (above) hits our Kevlar thread, what happens?
1) The filament yarn extends into an angular shape defined by the velocity of the bullet
2) The mass of the yarn can be found for any given length thanks to a numbering system used by industry called Denier. Denier defines the number of grams of mass of a yarn per 9000 meters. (No one I have ever asked knows why 9000 is used. A famous English professor at Manchester proposed a system called Tex in which grams per 1000 meters would be used. It's very logical, so industry ignores it.) A typical Denier used in Kevlar for armor is 750, which equates to 83.3 Tex.
3) Stress to break is usually expressed in grams force per denier or tex, and it is nearly a linear function (all initial modulus) for this fiber. For Kevlar 129 it is 2.38 Newtons/tex, so it will take 2.38 N/Tex x 83.3 Tex = 198.3 kg-m/sec^2 of force to break one yarn.
4) We now can find how much energy it will take to break this yarn. The yarn will break when it has been extended to 1.034 times its original length, but it is the bullet itself that is extending it. So that we don't have to differentiate the equation of the surface of the bullet ogive, is it okay just to say that the diameter of this pointed bullet lies between 0 and 9 mm? (This has to be getting boring for most people and I'm too nerdy to know when to stop.) The impacted yarn length therefore becomes 4.5 mm (.0045 meters) and it will break at a length of 0.00463 m.
5) Now we go back to the equation that Energy is Force x Length. So according to Newton, we can can take 198.3 Newtons (the unit, not the guy) x .00463 meters, and find that the yarn breaks under 0.92 Joules of energy. That 9 mm bullet's energy is defined with the velocity dependent equation E = 1/2 (mV^2), and it has 640 Joules of energy. It will require 640/0.92 = 695.7 Kevlar threads to stop it, disregarding friction, drag effects and thermal energy generation in the lead core to turn it liquid.
6) Now we see the supreme importance of cross-sectional area of the bullet in all this, because if you hold the energy quantity constant, the smaller the bullet, the shorter the breaking length of the material and the more material you need to stop the bullet!
7) The final consideration in a woven material is the number of yarns in each plane of fabric layers. For the fabric under consideration here, a very good representative number is 11 yarns/cm in a square sett (Thread count = 11 x 11). This makes 1100/meter in each direction, or 2200/m^2 (Yes, you add rather than multiply. Only 1100 will fit in each direction, so you won't get 1,210,000 crammed in there.)
8) Our bullet diameter of .0045 m is going to encounter 4.95 threads in each of the woven directions, so it has to break 9.9 per layer. Each layer will then be taking 9.9 x 0.92 Joules of energy from it or 9.1 total Joules.
9) If no other effects were involved, you would need 70 layers to stop this bullet. Obviously that does not happen with a deformable projectile like an FMJ or the even more yielding hollow point types. But with a solid, non-deforming projectile, it is an accurate representation.
If anyone wants to see the effect of energy per unit area in the equation, you can go back and substitute your favorite bullet's mass, velocity and diameter into the right places and give it a try. A good one to start with is a .45 caliber ACP FMJ (mass=0.015 kg, velocity=250 m/sec, diameter=0.0115 m; quoted Joules = 477).

Gwynedd, thanks for the website. Looks fascinating & I've passed it on for comment. My friend most likely won't look at it because 1) it's too expensive and as a producer he wants to keep costs down, 2) cannot make it large enough for car windscreens, 3) probably cannot be made easily, 4) being more durable, he loses maintainance and rebuild work! He told me that the existing stuff has a usable life of about 1 year as the windscreens delaminate from the sunlight and the cars are worn out from the weight of all the additional armour. Good for a producer.

I was also curious about your energy figures for the different rounds and was going to look at how penetration figures are calculated. I don't normally worry about thing like that as I am a precision shooter and not a hunter. But for Practical Pistol they measure the power factor using the velocity x the weight (but not velocity squared!). Our UK ranges have just been limited by muzzle velocity using momentum (mass x velocity) which acts against blackpowder. According to our Government a .577 black powder rifle is more powerful than a modern 5.56 or 7.62 round!

My penetration queries were started last time I was testing the bullet-resistant glass. My friend had also filled some beakers with his polymer compound, a different beaker for each type he was testing. Without the glass in front we didn't know how far any bullet would penetrate but the best polymer is the one with the least penetration. I was using .357 magnum through a carbine and they all showed less than an inch penetration. I hoped to try more pointy bullets but as we have a poor selection here (if you believe that UK is bad you should try Belfast!) and tried some 124g 9mm heads as they are the pointiest I can find. I have now discovered that 0.001" difference in bore diameter has a great difference on accuracy!
 
I take your word for it and Johnny"s for your combined shooting expertise. I'm on the other side of this discipline. I like to stop bullets and I don't really like to launch them.

Hi Johnny,

I was figuring it was a bit more elaborate than that. The process has gotten a bit more refined now from my experience. Instead of fibreglas, some folks use Marine-tex. I prefer Brownell's Acraglas-Steel. It is an epoxy filled with very finely ground stainless steel. I have thought about Devcon Titanium filled epoxy, but not used it yet. The problem is that final processing requires some grinding of the stuff that overflows and Titanium eats normal steel cutters.

Glass bedding for this gun happens in a multi step process. I believe the 5 pillar bedding process developed by Mr. Reid Coffield of Brownells is the best idea but have not used it yet. It basically involves drilling tunnels between the upper bedding areas and the lower through the stock side walls and from the rear horseshoe down to the rear of the trigger assembly and filling with the bedding material. The idea is that wood compresses and bedding material doesn't, so put pillars to take up the compression force.

The stock liner is relieved to allow the legs of the receiver to sit enclosed by bedding material rather than hit the stock liner. Some folks remove the stock liner entirely which I believe is a bad idea because the magazine well then doesn't have a nice steel liner to prevent accidentally chewing up the stock from below.

The Gas system is unitized with the front band and the stock ferrule is polished. The USAMTU process was to anneal the gas cylinder and band and drill through the spindle and cylinder from the back and hold everything in place with a couple hex screws from the back. I have also seen the parts brazed together and tack welded together. I prefer the last two because they leave the gas-cutoff functional. The brazing looks better IMHO. I have also shot guns that did NOT have the gas system modified and did not shoot noticeably worse.

The spring guide is modified either by welding a rod to replace the stamped part that the spring coils over or these days by a piece from Brookfield Precision Tool. The idea is to have a spring guide that is a larger diameter and round so that the spring does not kink up.

The whole gas system is then assembled and gas cylinder lock is then adjusted so that it bottoms out on the threads at 6 o'clock. Shims are used between the barrel shoulder and the gas cylinder to adjust where the lock bottoms out.

The flash suppressor is reamed with a taper so that rain gathering at the bottom will not touch a departing bullet. I have a different idea as to how this should be done, but haven't found anyone to do the machining and welding to test out my theory.

Handguard is held off the barrel with a small rubber washer or piece under the clip. The front of the handguard may be epoxied to the front band. The handguard should NOT touch the barrel or stock in any way. On M14 Heavy barrels, it may be necessary to grind off the underside of the ridges on the handguard to clear the front of the barrel. On standard weight barrel (why would we use these on a target gun???), there will be clearance. On a medium weight barrel, there should also be plenty of clearance.

After initial assembly, there is another adjustment I found in a Marine Corps manual which seems to improve things. The operating rod should bottom out against the gas piston. There will be a small distance (about 3/32 inch) from where the op rod stops and the roller on the bolt. Test this by unscrewing the gas plug. With a .308 Go gauge in the chamber (to substitute for a max size round) check contact distance between op rod and bolt roller. Cut the back of the gas piston until the gas plug only pushes the op rod about 1/32 or less off the back of the bolt roller. This increases the time between when the op rod starts moving and when the bolt starts to unlock. Details regarding testing are too elaborate to describe here.

Unless this is a stainless barrel, you might want to mask off the barrel (without gas cylinder in place) and spray paint the bottom of it with silver engine paint or some heat resistant paint. The idea is to prevent rust from gas fouling from the back side of the gas cylinder. Silver shows up fouling pretty well for those complete disassembly and cleanings.

There are two sizes of NM rear sight aperture. .0520 and .0595. My preference is for the 0.0520. These sights have a notch on the back which indicates the direction of adjustment. Rotating the hood so that the notch goes from top to bottom would lower the sight by 1/2 MOA. The military uses a sight base with finer threads to allow 1/2 MOA adjustments per click. I think these bases have "NM 2/A" markings or something similar. Some commercial manufacturers grind off the detents on the windage knob and put a small cavity in the right side of the receiver under the sight for a spring and ball bearing to index on the notches the cut into the back side of the windage knob. IMHO either one works well enough. Some folks like to cut the lower part of the aperture so that when elevated high enough, the entire aperture comes out of the gun. This is to allow for aperture changes on the range without having to disassemble the entire rear sight. I prefer not to do this.

That's pretty much the process as I remember it. There are a quite a lot of notes on alignment, clearances and checks left out. BTW, for those who might want to actually try this, I accept no responsibility for anything YOU blow up! This is intended as a "War Story". Treat it as such!

- Ivan.

P.S. Remember to cut or grind on the cheaper replaceable part!
 
Newton

~S~ G,

First, I support what you are trying 100%. I have had children in the war and now have two, soon to be three grand children in the service. One served in Iraqi.

It never ceases to amaze me how all the laws and values you quoted from Newton and Einstein apply to so many different fields. Like "Joules", especially.

Sir Isaac Newton, 1642 or 3 to 1726 or 7, depending on which History Book you use. He defined laws for things that had not been invented and could not be tested with the instruments available at the time. A very logical person, much like Einstein.

Newton made the laws and the instruments were made later to reflect his laws in the process.

Einstein was not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree when he was growing up. He went to work in a patten office and started reading this scientific work and it all made sense to him. I really doubt that either could pass the SAT's.

Anyway, "joules", That would be the key that can not be broken and why the robots will be the only solution to the armored vest issue. As I had stated earlier the more the armor is improved the more the weapon is improved.

Make the robots big and strong with lots of armor plating, and make sure the controllers do not become to attached to them.

We (gun people) are thinking bigger is better, but you know in your own mind that smaller is worse. A bullet the size of a tooth pick will shoot holes in any Kevlar you can come up with. The guy on the bike theory in reverse.
................................................................:bs:
This may well be just another way of avoiding law suites. We are sorry Mrs. Johnson, but we tried to give your son Bobby the best protection possible.

Good luck,

j
 
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