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The Staff of SOH
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Hang on. Fingers off triggers, people and read some of the posts commenting on this thread.
No-one is saying that anyone is not entitled to their opinion. No-one is saying that you can't post negative comments on a thread. All some of us are saying is please back up your statements with supporting information - is that really so difficult to accept?
Edit again. This really isn't worth fighting over, so I'm leaving the thread.
No-one is saying that anyone is not entitled to their opinion. No-one is saying that you can't post negative comments on a thread. All some of us are saying is please back up your statements with supporting information - is that really so difficult to accept?
Edit again. This really isn't worth fighting over, so I'm leaving the thread.
Major_Spittle
Charter Member
Ian- I agree, there was no review and thus his choice of calling it a mini-reveiw. His post was, what it was and that was an opinion on flight characteristics, and textures vs price.
I am curious what it was about the thrust of the f-14 that seem unrealistic? I personally think that FSX is incapable of modeling realistic flight characteristics for anything flown outside a certain envelope. Thus the 747s that fall from 10,000ft the whole way with the nose pointed straight up like they were in a vaccuum with a 20 ton weight in their elevator. So I can see how doing many manuvers in a combat airplane and expecting realism could futile in any FSX airplane.
Also I have bought airplanes, I just do it few and far between now because I added up how much I have spent and looked collectively at what it got me. I must say my latest temptation is the Strato 377 by A2A because I have been reading a guys blog about his round the world flight in it. I would never consider this plane either other than the guy's blog makes me want to do the same thing and I want the most realistic plane I can get to do it in. Missions and a purpose for flying goes a long way.
I am curious what it was about the thrust of the f-14 that seem unrealistic? I personally think that FSX is incapable of modeling realistic flight characteristics for anything flown outside a certain envelope. Thus the 747s that fall from 10,000ft the whole way with the nose pointed straight up like they were in a vaccuum with a 20 ton weight in their elevator. So I can see how doing many manuvers in a combat airplane and expecting realism could futile in any FSX airplane.
Also I have bought airplanes, I just do it few and far between now because I added up how much I have spent and looked collectively at what it got me. I must say my latest temptation is the Strato 377 by A2A because I have been reading a guys blog about his round the world flight in it. I would never consider this plane either other than the guy's blog makes me want to do the same thing and I want the most realistic plane I can get to do it in. Missions and a purpose for flying goes a long way.
Here is my mini review:
The model looks fantastic in FSX and I like the way it handles. I also enjoy the way IRIS have added some system depth. If all you want to do is jump in and fly this, it will not work for you. Make sure you follow the Sec 3. Normal Procedures in the manual and it will behave and fly mostly by the published numbers, at least as close as most other FSX aircraft and better than some.
The VC is fine, not photo real, but very good. The HUD performance is much improved over the previous version. For me this was well worth the money and I have already had many hours of fun with it. Carrier take-off and landings are a blast. With all switches properly set it gives me the feeling I am flying a very powerful jet fighter, exactly what I would expect from an F-14 simulation.
No complaints and I have not experienced the negatives Tigisfat has expressed about the flight model. Tigisfat did you have the inlet ramps open/auto or did you fly with them closed? I tried flying with them closed and if that would have been my only experience with it, I would complain too.
The model looks fantastic in FSX and I like the way it handles. I also enjoy the way IRIS have added some system depth. If all you want to do is jump in and fly this, it will not work for you. Make sure you follow the Sec 3. Normal Procedures in the manual and it will behave and fly mostly by the published numbers, at least as close as most other FSX aircraft and better than some.
The VC is fine, not photo real, but very good. The HUD performance is much improved over the previous version. For me this was well worth the money and I have already had many hours of fun with it. Carrier take-off and landings are a blast. With all switches properly set it gives me the feeling I am flying a very powerful jet fighter, exactly what I would expect from an F-14 simulation.
No complaints and I have not experienced the negatives Tigisfat has expressed about the flight model. Tigisfat did you have the inlet ramps open/auto or did you fly with them closed? I tried flying with them closed and if that would have been my only experience with it, I would complain too.
warchild
Charter Member
Gentlemen gentlemen. It's all good. The gentleman had a reasonable opinion to state and did so ( albeit a bit harshly ).. The truth of the matter is that at the time of the F-14s release, world economy took a crap all over our lives. Now, David started work on the F-14 long before towards the beginning of the year modeling gauges ( they are entirely 3D, no bitmaps) and dealing with testors that went so far as to turn the chais upside down to find a couple of vertices that were out of place ( literally). I Admit, I only put 2.5 months work in on the flight model. It's not my best, but that was stil working 16 to 20 hours a day six days a week ( yeahhhh, I REALLLY do need a life ). The thing is, It wasnt originally supposed to be a pro gade model. But we found ourselves in this really bizaar space where the qulity that was achieved was better thn anything that we ( we? right. look, i'm Iris by association only, and consider them my family, however, david is Iris. I go my own little thing going soo. sorry for the confusion) had ever released in th premiere line before. The model had been wayyyy improved, and the flight dynamics?? welllll, i have a partner at jftc whos job it is to make me pull my hair out, and he was having himself a real good time doing just that until every number in the fde matched the NATOPS exactly. SO, yeahh, the plane sells for a bit higher price. David didnt make that decision easily, but unlike me, he doesnt have a retirement pension coming in, and has a wife to be to think of and Iris is his whole life. The plane doesnt fly like other planes in FSX, or FS9, none of my planes ever will. I stzart with the manufacturers data sheets on the powerplants, and build from there. Due to the fact that we cant get the original blueprints for most of these planes, theres differences between the model and the real plane caused by differences between available schematics and the real blue prints, so we can never get it exact, but we can get pretty close.
Ya know, it's like, i'm sitting here, surrounded by the absolute best developers in the community. People responsible for causing me to look beyond flight sim as a toy by the very models they built. Piglet and Milton were two of them that came to mind. heh. I'm totally blown away...
Ya know, it's like, i'm sitting here, surrounded by the absolute best developers in the community. People responsible for causing me to look beyond flight sim as a toy by the very models they built. Piglet and Milton were two of them that came to mind. heh. I'm totally blown away...
Ah the morning after...Even I didn't expect this post to still be running along. First off, apologies for my sarcastic overtones in my initial e-mail. It had been a hell of a day, although I still hold strong to the root points of my comments.
I am all for constructive critisism. If you don't like a product, tell us, but also tell us why and how we can fix it, otherwise how are we to learn.
I had an issue before relating to poor quality in our VC's, so I put an open post out there saying, if you think our VC's are substandard, PM me with details on what about the VC's you think is poor and what you would expect as a customer from a product.. The outcome of that was a startling ZERO replies.. NOONE contacted me to follow up.
So from that I took a very valuable lesson. It seems then that people are very content to slam products they don't like, but when asked to help improve developers work by providing feedback on what they would like us to improve on so we can create better products for the money they pay, they just did not seem to care.
So from then on out, I produce aircraft people will enjoy to the best of my abilities and for a cost which keeps a roof over my head and the bills paid, the two overriding points of development.
I'm not in this to make a fortune, I'm just in this to model aircraft I love, and to pay the bills whilst I'm at it. As soon as I can no longer do either of those two things, I'm out of here.
Tigisfat, you're more than welcome to post your initial thoughts on a product based on five minutes of flighttime (geez, I can't even get the aircraft half way through the startup procedure in that time!), however my point was simple, IF you're going to throw negative commentry out there, back it up with facts or items for us to IMPROVE ON!
I have lots of bosses, they are my customers. The majority love the Tomcat for their own reasons. Some, such as yourself don't love the aircraft we've done and that's fine...one man's superb plane is another man's dogs dinner, same deal with pricing. Most consumers know this.
My arguement is how are we as the developer of the product expected to improve the product, unless YOU as the customer, or in your case 'potential' customer provide us with details on what you'd like fixed.
Saying 'the flight model is poor' is a very generic statement and leaves a LOT to the interpretation of the developer. Saying, 'At takeoff, there doesn't seem to be enough thrust when I'm in afterburner' or 'At 10,000 feet I can only reach Mach .98 where established figures (link here) state that I should be travelling at x speed' are FAR more helpful as an example.
What I would recommend, is a visit to our forums and in particular the beta section which is freely viewable after registration, where you can look through some of the posts written by our beta team to get an idea of what I look for in order to effectively debug aircraft.
Anyway, I've had my say and Tigisfat, I look forward to more of your feedback, should you wish to elaborate further, although I do suggest doing it on the IRIS forums (we have an F-14 Tomcat thread) so as not to bog down the SOH guys.
Regards
DB.
I am all for constructive critisism. If you don't like a product, tell us, but also tell us why and how we can fix it, otherwise how are we to learn.
I had an issue before relating to poor quality in our VC's, so I put an open post out there saying, if you think our VC's are substandard, PM me with details on what about the VC's you think is poor and what you would expect as a customer from a product.. The outcome of that was a startling ZERO replies.. NOONE contacted me to follow up.
So from that I took a very valuable lesson. It seems then that people are very content to slam products they don't like, but when asked to help improve developers work by providing feedback on what they would like us to improve on so we can create better products for the money they pay, they just did not seem to care.
So from then on out, I produce aircraft people will enjoy to the best of my abilities and for a cost which keeps a roof over my head and the bills paid, the two overriding points of development.
I'm not in this to make a fortune, I'm just in this to model aircraft I love, and to pay the bills whilst I'm at it. As soon as I can no longer do either of those two things, I'm out of here.
Tigisfat, you're more than welcome to post your initial thoughts on a product based on five minutes of flighttime (geez, I can't even get the aircraft half way through the startup procedure in that time!), however my point was simple, IF you're going to throw negative commentry out there, back it up with facts or items for us to IMPROVE ON!
I have lots of bosses, they are my customers. The majority love the Tomcat for their own reasons. Some, such as yourself don't love the aircraft we've done and that's fine...one man's superb plane is another man's dogs dinner, same deal with pricing. Most consumers know this.
My arguement is how are we as the developer of the product expected to improve the product, unless YOU as the customer, or in your case 'potential' customer provide us with details on what you'd like fixed.
Saying 'the flight model is poor' is a very generic statement and leaves a LOT to the interpretation of the developer. Saying, 'At takeoff, there doesn't seem to be enough thrust when I'm in afterburner' or 'At 10,000 feet I can only reach Mach .98 where established figures (link here) state that I should be travelling at x speed' are FAR more helpful as an example.
What I would recommend, is a visit to our forums and in particular the beta section which is freely viewable after registration, where you can look through some of the posts written by our beta team to get an idea of what I look for in order to effectively debug aircraft.
Anyway, I've had my say and Tigisfat, I look forward to more of your feedback, should you wish to elaborate further, although I do suggest doing it on the IRIS forums (we have an F-14 Tomcat thread) so as not to bog down the SOH guys.
Regards
DB.
Suggestion from a satisfied IRIS customer: more VC texturing. That is what has alot of influence over what I buy. Suspension of disbelief in the cockpit works better when the textures give you the impression that you can reach out and touch them. I don't know squat about painting or designing or the limitations you guys have to deal with to give us quality products for our enjoyment, so I can't give anymore constructive comments there. Not being critical at all, just my personal preference, nothing more. Looking forward to your future projects.
I know im in the wrong place, but while ya'll at iris are lurking....in regards to the fs9 model...before the first update, i could run full power w/o burners and never break mach 1 until i lit those babies up, but after the update, she keeps on ticking past mach 1 even with about 85% power. love the plane, i just hate breaking the barrier in supercruise. fs9 limits? i suck? still love your plane though, purdy damn sexy if you ask me:ernae:
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tigisfat
Guest
I don't regret starting this thread or stating my viewpoints, but I do regret using as harsh of language in the original post. I tried to immediately edit it but was unable, so I guess it has to stand. Given the harsh language, the only people here who should be taken aback are the IRIS folks, and they've given me the most reasonable responses so far out of my detractors. My hat's off to them for that.:ernae:
I still must stick to my guns when it comes to my opinion of the aircraft and it's value.:karate:
There's a lot to be said for the feel of an aircraft. Here's an example: the CLS 747-200/300. It has extremely limited functionality; but it looks great, feels like it flies right and the sound pack puts you there. The aerosoft F-16's flight model has some serious limitations, but it feels incredible.
The point of this "mini-review" was not to provide IRIS with ways to fix it. I'm not an F-14 pilot or a MSFS developer. At the risk of sounding negative again, I wasn't offering constructive criticism; I was offering an opinion for someone who's debating on whether or not to buy it.
I can say this: The -1/NATOPS/POH may provide numbers that it needs to fly by, but it can never convey the way an aircraft feels or flies. There's too much that is missed like AOA build (or lack thereof) under extreme loading, speed bleed off, ground effect, flight control feel and others. Sometimes you can know when a MSFS aircraft flies right just by having watched them fly from the ground in real life before. It's admirable that you guys have gotten so far in making the aircraft fly exactly in accordance with the handbook. It must be difficult and tiring. I just don't think that's all there is to it.
I'll take an aircraft that 'feels' right and looks like the it's flying like the real thing from the tower over one that matches the POH perfectly any day.
Here's one thing very wrong that I do remember: The aircraft can achieve almost 1,000KIAS at 1,000MSL without the use of afterburners. That is extremely wrong, and the NATOPS will probably back me up. The F-22 is supercruise capable, as most know, and it can't do that. This kind of performance takes a sawzall to my first impression and overall feel of realism.
I still must stick to my guns when it comes to my opinion of the aircraft and it's value.:karate:
There's a lot to be said for the feel of an aircraft. Here's an example: the CLS 747-200/300. It has extremely limited functionality; but it looks great, feels like it flies right and the sound pack puts you there. The aerosoft F-16's flight model has some serious limitations, but it feels incredible.
The point of this "mini-review" was not to provide IRIS with ways to fix it. I'm not an F-14 pilot or a MSFS developer. At the risk of sounding negative again, I wasn't offering constructive criticism; I was offering an opinion for someone who's debating on whether or not to buy it.
I can say this: The -1/NATOPS/POH may provide numbers that it needs to fly by, but it can never convey the way an aircraft feels or flies. There's too much that is missed like AOA build (or lack thereof) under extreme loading, speed bleed off, ground effect, flight control feel and others. Sometimes you can know when a MSFS aircraft flies right just by having watched them fly from the ground in real life before. It's admirable that you guys have gotten so far in making the aircraft fly exactly in accordance with the handbook. It must be difficult and tiring. I just don't think that's all there is to it.
I'll take an aircraft that 'feels' right and looks like the it's flying like the real thing from the tower over one that matches the POH perfectly any day.Here's one thing very wrong that I do remember: The aircraft can achieve almost 1,000KIAS at 1,000MSL without the use of afterburners. That is extremely wrong, and the NATOPS will probably back me up. The F-22 is supercruise capable, as most know, and it can't do that. This kind of performance takes a sawzall to my first impression and overall feel of realism.
Just to clarify Tigisfat, You are referring to the NEW FSX Native IRIS Pro Series Tomcat, and NOT the old FSX Compatible Premium series one?
The difference between the two is chalk and cheese. I find myself wondering, because I can't get the aircraft to break 1000knts at sea level in Mil thrust, yet the OLD F-14, in FS9 and FSX had a completely different flight model.
If you're unsure which one your friend was flying, you can PM he his name and I'll do a search to see which product he's purchased.
The difference between the two is chalk and cheese. I find myself wondering, because I can't get the aircraft to break 1000knts at sea level in Mil thrust, yet the OLD F-14, in FS9 and FSX had a completely different flight model.
If you're unsure which one your friend was flying, you can PM he his name and I'll do a search to see which product he's purchased.
heywooood
Mayor Emeritus of Taco City
this is an interesting thread-
tigisfat says he regrets some of the harshness of his original statements...
I wonder if any of the local responders do.
I also enjoyed the replies from the Iris crew - very well played and with the right humility for the most part and good humor...I planed to buy the F-14 as soon as I had the funds and their posts in this thread has only reassured that decision.
I am in favor of these kinds of 'seat of the pants' reviews - I have been burned by payware before, and after reading relatively glowing posts on this board about them to boot...so - there is some kind of hierarchy or 'fraternity' here that lends itself to either over the top support for certain developers - or over the top dissrespect for others.
but the thing that really stands out here in this thread is the short fused anger over this kind of 'opinion' posting - its just one mans opinion afterall - and usually its not the opinion thats unfortunate - but the reaction to it.
tip of the cap to Iris and the rest of the folks that took tigisfats statements at face value and didn't lose their balance. :ernae:
tigisfat says he regrets some of the harshness of his original statements...
I wonder if any of the local responders do.
I also enjoyed the replies from the Iris crew - very well played and with the right humility for the most part and good humor...I planed to buy the F-14 as soon as I had the funds and their posts in this thread has only reassured that decision.
I am in favor of these kinds of 'seat of the pants' reviews - I have been burned by payware before, and after reading relatively glowing posts on this board about them to boot...so - there is some kind of hierarchy or 'fraternity' here that lends itself to either over the top support for certain developers - or over the top dissrespect for others.
but the thing that really stands out here in this thread is the short fused anger over this kind of 'opinion' posting - its just one mans opinion afterall - and usually its not the opinion thats unfortunate - but the reaction to it.
tip of the cap to Iris and the rest of the folks that took tigisfats statements at face value and didn't lose their balance. :ernae:
Ahhhhh..enter,the Sandman!!!!!! I see you haven't lost your keen sence of keeping things in perspective and having a forum that's a level playing field for all posters,My compliments to you heywooood,from your old Grumman friend back in the IL2/Pacific Fighter days VF-17 BOOM.
/Patrick/
/Patrick/
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tigisfat
Guest
good post.:welcome:
I didn't set out to put an end to IRIS F-14 sales, I set out to offer what I though was a very real opinion. Anyone can do with it what they want, as evidenced by this post I've quoted.
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tigisfat
Guest
I guess it's different when it's you.
Here's my supporting information and back-up for my opinion: it's my opinion. :typing:
It doesn't have to be a fight. It can be a debate between intelligent people. You seem like a smart guy. It's simple, don't get angry at people thousands of miles away who can't harm your property or loved ones with their disagreeing words conveyed via the internet.:gossip:
warchild
Charter Member
It's a different plane altogether. we havent done that for fs9 yet, but it's in the que. when we do it, it'll fly exactly like the fsx model. It's really the least i could do for you folks.
MenendezDiego
Charter Member
, lol count em, TWO 
heywooood
Mayor Emeritus of Taco City
Hey Boom! hows it hangin' ol friend :ernae:
What took you so long to come over to the best MSFS site? been hanging out at the banana republic waiting for BoB ? hahah
[Deleted]
This thread isn't worth the electrons used to read it, I'm afraid.
I'm not angry. Merely suggesting you might like to behave in a different way - especially considering you have based your "review" on an incomplete picture of what might well be totally the wrong aircraft!
This thread isn't worth the electrons used to read it, I'm afraid.
I'm not angry. Merely suggesting you might like to behave in a different way - especially considering you have based your "review" on an incomplete picture of what might well be totally the wrong aircraft!
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